Thoughts on motorbike style eBikes?

[ebikeerwidnes]

I'm not worried at all and I'm happy they're cracking down on those taking the weewee. I could just do without the hassle of being pulled over, it would waste both my time and theirs. I do suspect they'll be targeting the low hanging fruit though.

Thing is that the low hanging fruit are the people who commute and ride in a reasonable way on a bike that is not exactly legal but doesn;t take the whatsit
e.g. a legal ebike but with a throttle fitted or the speed sensor moved to the pedal rather than the wheel to fool the speed thingy etc etc - all of which would require the bike to be stopped and looked at carefully by someone who knows what to look for

El Yobbo on a sur-Ron will need to be chased down in heavy traffic and will know the roads with bollards at the end
so it's not something they will be equipped or funded to do at the time

I would be fine as my bike is legal - but it would be a pain having to stop and turn the bike upside down then clean the mud off the label

 

[Dadam]

Well it's not really as simple as does it have a throttle. If the bike has a throttle that functions up only to 4mph it's legal as a "walk assist" throttle. It's also legal to have one that operates above that speed up to 15.5mph, as long as it only functions when the pedals are being turned. In that way it's no different to an infinitely variable assist level control. So they would have to examine the bike closely to be accurate anyway.

By those who take the whatsit I mean the (for example) delivery riders with the enormous hub motors and fat tyres. Who are quite easy to catch as they need to park their bikes outside the takeaway. Or the chap I saw a few months ago whizzing up a 5% hill at what looked like 25-30 without pedalling. I mean at least try to look legit; a token turn of the pedals every so often!

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Well it's not really as simple as does it have a throttle. If the bike has a throttle that functions up only to 4mph it's legal as a "walk assist" throttle. It's also legal to have one that operates above that speed up to 15.5mph, as long as it only functions when the pedals are being turned. In that way it's no different to an infinitely variable assist level control. So they would have to examine the bike closely to be accurate anyway.

By those who take the whatsit I mean the (for example) delivery riders with the enormous hub motors and fat tyres. Who are quite easy to catch as they need to park their bikes outside the takeaway. Or the chap I saw a few months ago whizzing up a 5% hill at what looked like 25-30 without pedalling. I mean at least try to look legit; a token turn of the pedals every so often!

Yes - the walk assist things are OK
But people do retro-fit proper throttles which will mostly make the bike illegal - probably about as common as fiddling the speed cut-off ( reference - "I think so " and "I've seen a couple" but also my LBS hinted he could help me with that if I wanted!!!)

As far as the delivery rider are concerned - they are clearly present - but I'm not sure that they are all that easy to catch

and anyway- think of the Headlines

"Family of 6 with disabled Mom go hungry after Police arrest struggling delivery rider who was only trying to earn money to feed his disabled Parents"

 

[classic33]

Well it's not really as simple as does it have a throttle. If the bike has a throttle that functions up only to 4mph it's legal as a "walk assist" throttle. It's also legal to have one that operates above that speed up to 15.5mph, as long as it only functions when the pedals are being turned. In that way it's no different to an infinitely variable assist level control. So they would have to examine the bike closely to be accurate anyway.

By those who take the whatsit I mean the (for example) delivery riders with the enormous hub motors and fat tyres. Who are quite easy to catch as they need to park their bikes outside the takeaway. Or the chap I saw a few months ago whizzing up a 5% hill at what looked like 25-30 without pedalling. I mean at least try to look legit; a token turn of the pedals every so often!

The part in bold applies to the previous regulations, which means you'll have had your bike before the current regulations came into force. And that it met those regulations.
If you didn't, and it didn't, the throttle would make it illegal.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

The part in bold applies to the previous regulations, which means you'll have had your bike before the current regulations came into force. And that it met those regulations.
If you didn't, and it didn't, the throttle would make it illegal.

Not sure that is true
If the throttle only works when the pedals are in use then it is not really a throttle in the normal sense

Certainly the pre-2016 regulations allowed a normal throttle - twist it and the bike goes - no pedal turning needed

as far as I am aware you can have a throttle on the current regs but you need to go through some hoops with the DVLA - possibly

 

[Dadam]

The part in bold applies to the previous regulations, which means you'll have had your bike before the current regulations came into force. And that it met those regulations.
If you didn't, and it didn't, the throttle would make it illegal.

Well that does seems to be debatable. Logically, if the (lack of) pedalling overrides the throttle setting, cutting the power, then the throttle setting is just an infinitely variable assist level setting. Assist level is usually set by up and down buttons not a sliding potentiometer but the principle is the same

 

[classic33]

Not sure that is true
If the throttle only works when the pedals are in use then it is not really a throttle in the normal sense

Certainly the pre-2016 regulations allowed a normal throttle - twist it and the bike goes - no pedal turning needed

as far as I am aware you can have a throttle on the current regs but you need to go through some hoops with the DVLA - possibly

And it seems as though there's only the one testing station set up to deal with the test.

 

[Oldhippy]

A bit pointless.

 

[bonzobanana]

Non electric fat bikes are perfectly legal, they are heavy and slow compared to other bikes but they are comfy and very safe with great grip on many surfaces even sand. They are super comfortable with soft tyres and the tyres give a very good suspension effect which there is no maintenance aspect too compared to normal suspension. I really can't see the problem in making ebike versions of them as long as they comply with the rules. There is probably a greater need to electrify them for hill climbing.

 

[johnnyb47]

My dad recently bought one of these fat tyre e bikes this summer.Its called a Go Go best gf600 to which I think is technically illegal to use on our roads in the uk.On the one hand its restricted to 15.5 mph, but the motor is rated at 1000 Watts which is illegal..
He thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.After his hip replacement a few years ago and old age creeping in it has left him unsteady on his feet and where he lives ,is very hilly and the road's are particularly rough and potholed. This bike seems to suit him really well..It's incredibly comfortable and the tyre's swallow up the bad roads making it a very stable ride which is what he really needs.
As said before it's restricted to 15.5 and he abides by that ,but the extra power the 1000 watt motor provides really helps him on the ridiculously steep climbs

 

[youngoldbloke]

My dad recently bought one of these fat tyre e bikes this summer.Its called a Go Go best gf600 to which I think is technically illegal to use on our roads in the uk.On the one hand its restricted to 15.5 mph, but the motor is rated at 1000 Watts which is illegal..
He thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.After his hip replacement a few years ago and old age creeping in it has left him unsteady on his feet and where he lives ,is very hilly and the road's are particularly rough and potholed. This bike seems to suit him really well..It's incredibly comfortable and the tyre's swallow up the bad roads making it a very stable ride which is what he really needs.
As said before it's restricted to 15.5 and he abides by that ,but the extra power the 1000 watt motor provides really helps him on the ridiculously steep climbs

If only all ebikes - legal and illegal - were ridden sensibly and responsibly there wouldn't be a problem. Of course the same applies to motor vehicles, most of which have more power and potential for high speed far in excess of that needed. Essentially it's the rider or driver that's the problem, not the machine.

 

[bonzobanana]

My dad recently bought one of these fat tyre e bikes this summer.Its called a Go Go best gf600 to which I think is technically illegal to use on our roads in the uk.On the one hand its restricted to 15.5 mph, but the motor is rated at 1000 Watts which is illegal..
He thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.After his hip replacement a few years ago and old age creeping in it has left him unsteady on his feet and where he lives ,is very hilly and the road's are particularly rough and potholed. This bike seems to suit him really well..It's incredibly comfortable and the tyre's swallow up the bad roads making it a very stable ride which is what he really needs.
As said before it's restricted to 15.5 and he abides by that ,but the extra power the 1000 watt motor provides really helps him on the ridiculously steep climbs

Most mid-drive pre-built e-mountain bikes you buy in shops like Bosch based models are consuming over 700W sometimes over 800W when climbing hills. This actually could be more than your dad's bike as not many 1000W hub motors actually get near to 1000W in power. Most don't have batteries capable of delivering that.

That is the thing with hub motors, it is utterly moronic to use the rating of the motor to indicate the power of the ebike. That rating is what the motor will take up to in power but its the controller that dictates the power that is delivered and that is what should be rated. The certification is so utterly moronic that it is written from a mid-drive perspective where controller and motor are in one unit and you can rate that unit but it makes no sense to use the maximum rating of a hub motor. It's like putting the engine rating information of a car on the transmission rather than the engine itself. Car engines too can be tuned for performance or economy and electronically restricted not much different from a ebike being electronically restricted.

If his ebike is restricted to 15.5mph and has pedals of course I really feel it has met its true legal requirements. The 250W rating which is pretty much ignored by everyone is far too restrictive. We really need to have honest certification like in the US rather than this abysmal tripe from the EU which makes no sense at all and actually degrades safety and is pretty much unenforceable.

 

[classic33]

Most mid-drive pre-built e-mountain bikes you buy in shops like Bosch based models are consuming over 700W sometimes over 800W when climbing hills. This actually could be more than your dad's bike as not many 1000W hub motors actually get near to 1000W in power. Most don't have batteries capable of delivering that.

That is the thing with hub motors, it is utterly moronic to use the rating of the motor to indicate the power of the ebike. That rating is what the motor will take up to in power but its the controller that dictates the power that is delivered and that is what should be rated. The certification is so utterly moronic that it is written from a mid-drive perspective where controller and motor are in one unit and you can rate that unit but it makes no sense to use the maximum rating of a hub motor. It's like putting the engine rating information of a car on the transmission rather than the engine itself. Car engines too can be tuned for performance or economy and electronically restricted not much different from a ebike being electronically restricted.

If his ebike is restricted to 15.5mph and has pedals of course I really feel it has met its true legal requirements. The 250W rating which is pretty much ignored by everyone is far too restrictive. We really need to have honest certification like in the US rather than this abysmal tripe from the EU which makes no sense at all and actually degrades safety and is pretty much unenforceable.

The US regulations are as bad as the pre 2016 EU regulations*. They vary across the states in terms of speed, motor power and cycle type.

I'm in favour of going back to the 2015 regulations, including the lower speed limit.

*They standardised the regulations across member states. Something legal in one country was illegal in another, which was the main reason behind the change.

 

[bonzobanana]

The US regulations are as bad as the pre 2016 EU regulations*. They vary across the states in terms of speed, motor power and cycle type.

I'm in favour of going back to the 2015 regulations, including the lower speed limit.

*They standardised the regulations across member states. Something legal in one country was illegal in another, which was the main reason behind the change.

I take your point about the regulations varying slightly from state to state but the certification itself is normal certification. It clearly states wattage in a logical way and the rules seem thought out quite well.

The UK is mph based and it would seem logical to opt out of certification that is based around 25km/h. A limit of 20mph for assistance seems obvious for urban environments.

Ebike law still varies widely across Europe there are many different rules in different countries and different countries have different legacy laws. I can buy a Wisper ebike in the UK with a twist and go throttle that is fully legal to use here but I won't be able to use it in most of Europe. Even in Europe you see ebikes sold and used outside the EU certification with no risk of prosecution. The EU legislation is just unworkable and unfair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

Also the old legislation was only marginally slower at 15mph and 200W continuous rating is I believe the level of power the motor can accept before a rise in temperature so still probably 300-400W in real terms especially as in the real world a bicycle hub motor is actively cooled as it rotates so different to testing the motor in isolation on a bench in a engineering test lab. Yes its not going to be the ridiculous 800W we see many mid-drive motors consuming despite their 250W rating and those are smaller higher rpm motors that generate a lot more heat. It feels like continuous rating is being abused maybe 2 or 3x the real value. However for a hub motor a 200W continuous rating probably can deliver 400W continuous power over a reasonable timeline before temperature protection kicks in. I personally hate this continuous rating. I see no reason not to use a simple rating like a vacuum cleaner, power drill or washing machine where a motor is rated up to its maximum wattage or slightly beyond. So I'd be happy to see a 1000W maximum rating which cannot be exceeded except for momentary spikes. It seems illogical to set a 200 or 250W limit and the only way to exceed that is to run the motor really hot to accept more current, seems bad for the long term reliability of motors. Lots of ebikes thermal throttle at times.

(a)have a kerbside weight not exceeding—

(i)in the case of a bicycle, other than a tandem bicycle, 40 kilograms, and

(ii)in the case of a tandem bicycle and a tricycle, 60 kilograms;

(b)be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled; and

(c)be fitted with no motor other than an electric motor which—

(i)has a continuous rated output which, when installed in the vehicle with the nominal voltage supplied, does not exceed—

(A)in the case of a bicycle, other than a tandem bicycle, 0.2 kilowatts,

(B)in the case of a tandem bicycle and a tricycle, 0.25 kilowatts; and

(ii)cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15 miles per hour.

 

[gbb]

At work we have several iterations of illegal battery powered modes of transport. Several e scooters, two of them look really expensive, chunky tyres and very large batteries.
And this...

50 mph, £2500 iirc. The owner understands its illegal and he watches out for Police. He commutes around 15 miles a day on it. He apparently has two others, not as extreme as this but.