Tour de France 2025 (CONTAINS SPOILERS!)

[ColinJ]

From his demeanour and statements, I'm wondering if he might be suffering from depression.

I really hope that it's not that!

I think that he is probably fighting off a cold or other bug.

 

[ktmbiker58]

From his demeanour and statements, I'm wondering if he might be suffering from depression.

Depression / mental exhaustion, the racing component is hard enough but the media frenzy and having to be a good PR agent for the team and maintaining that over 3 weeks must be very hard for any competitor.

 

[13 rider]

Has anyone else Pogi has been wearing a buff around his next on the podium for probably over a week ,I suspect he's had a minor sniffle for a while and doing everything to stop it getting worse

 

[No Ta Doctor]

It was poorly executed across the three weeks . Tour was then lost comprehensively at the "débâcle dans la Soulor"

There was no way back saving some outlandish event

La Soulor was awful, they went all in way too early in the race (as in stage number, not which climb). I think they were over-eager after Pog's crash the day before - when you're waiting for Pog to show some possible sign of weakness it's hard to turn your nose up at. I disagree that this was what lost them the Tour and that it was inevitable after then - firstly the main issue of the day turned out to be Jonas having a legitimate bad day on the Hautacam - they could have survived the tactical cock-up (inc. the loss of Jorgenson as a GC threat) if Jonas was anywhere near his general level at the moment, but he wasn't. Also, while 4 minutes is a huge amount of time to recover there was still the possibility after that of Pog properly cracking somewhere, it's happened before and degrading him is what they've been trying. This is currently the tightest GC between them since '22, so we've seen bigger gaps.

I think it's unfair to say the tactic was poorly executed other than that - they've isolated him pretty easily on several stages, but he's not shown any real weakness so far (yesterday was close, would have loved to see him with another couple of climbs in his legs and Jonas going for the time not the stage...). But you can isolate him and then you've got to have the legs to dispatch him, and Jonas hasn't had that.

As for the rest of the team being too fatigued to drop Pog (@DeadCalm's point you were replying to), they've never been trying to drop Pog, they've been trying to drop UAE teammates, and they've succeeded almost every time they've tried. After that it's all up to Jonas.

I honestly don't see that much they could have done different, other than the Hautacam stage. Maybe not bring Wout in the first place, who's looked cooked by the Giro. Vingegaard is the only rider in the world that has a chance of dropping Pog, and he needs to be flying and Pog on a bad that for that to happen. They've tried to engineer that all race and yes, they're knackered as well, that's the price. The fact that Pog's ridden conservatively, has turned up his nose at potential stage wins and is showing signs of a lot of fatigue now suggests they've done alright without being able to finish the job. Meanwhile a load of people who've claimed they don't understand Visma's tactics (despite being the same strat they've employed before) are all asking "what's up with Pog, does he have a cold, is he ill and hiding it?" while Pog's standing there saying "I wanna get this over and go home, it's been a tough Tour with people attacking me from all sides". I mean he's literally telling them directly why he's knackered and moody and not enjoying it, but there must be some mystery illness or something because there's no other reason they can see...

Sorry @mididoctors, not ranting at you, you've been pretty good in analysis all race and we've had a disagreement or two but that's just discussion, just using you as a springboard for a rant.

Sorry everyone else for the rant and wall of text. I know I'll get written-off as a one-eyed fan-boi but if you've you've got genuine tactical ideas for what Visma should have done instead of magical thinking like "he should have tried to attack further out" then I'll happily discuss. Visma are the only team that have tried to take it to Pogacar - the only team that could - and the pointing and laughing style of post is deeply uncharitable, to put it charitably.

Also, part of me ranting a bit is getting wound up by commentary elsewhere, which is much, much worse than even the worst posts on here (e.g. Belgian commentary team literally calling Jonas a pant-shïtter yesterday and the crap he took because of it). Nobody's fault here but it's already got me a little defensive.

But I'll leave this with Jorgenson's brother on BlueSky:

 

[mididoctors]

Kasper asgreen all business in aero helmet

 

[mididoctors]

Modest crowds comparatively

 

[No Ta Doctor]

Kasper asgreen all business in aero helmet

This one's been crossed in the calendar since the route came out.
But that's the case for about half of the peloton I think. Would be great if Onley got in the break, pure chaos

 

[mididoctors]

La Soulor was awful, they went all in way too early in the race (as in stage number, not which climb). I think they were over-eager after Pog's crash the day before - when you're waiting for Pog to show some possible sign of weakness it's hard to turn your nose up at. I disagree that this was what lost them the Tour and that it was inevitable after then - firstly the main issue of the day turned out to be Jonas having a legitimate bad day on the Hautacam - they could have survived the tactical cock-up (inc. the loss of Jorgenson as a GC threat) if Jonas was anywhere near his general level at the moment, but he wasn't. Also, while 4 minutes is a huge amount of time to recover there was still the possibility after that of Pog properly cracking somewhere, it's happened before and degrading him is what they've been trying. This is currently the tightest GC between them since '22, so we've seen bigger gaps.

I think it's unfair to say the tactic was poorly executed other than that - they've isolated him pretty easily on several stages, but he's not shown any real weakness so far (yesterday was close, would have loved to see him with another couple of climbs in his legs and Jonas going for the time not the stage...). But you can isolate him and then you've got to have the legs to dispatch him, and Jonas hasn't had that.

As for the rest of the team being too fatigued to drop Pog (@DeadCalm's point you were replying to), they've never been trying to drop Pog, they've been trying to drop UAE teammates, and they've succeeded almost every time they've tried. After that it's all up to Jonas.

I honestly don't see that much they could have done different, other than the Hautacam stage. Maybe not bring Wout in the first place, who's looked cooked by the Giro. Vingegaard is the only rider in the world that has a chance of dropping Pog, and he needs to be flying and Pog on a bad that for that to happen. They've tried to engineer that all race and yes, they're knackered as well, that's the price. The fact that Pog's ridden conservatively, has turned up his nose at potential stage wins and is showing signs of a lot of fatigue now suggests they've done alright without being able to finish the job. Meanwhile a load of people who've claimed they don't understand Visma's tactics (despite being the same strat they've employed before) are all asking "what's up with Pog, does he have a cold, is he ill and hiding it?" while Pog's standing there saying "I wanna get this over and go home, it's been a tough Tour with people attacking me from all sides". I mean he's literally telling them directly why he's knackered and moody and not enjoying it, but there must be some mystery illness or something because there's no other reason they can see...

Sorry @mididoctors, not ranting at you, you've been pretty good in analysis all race and we've had a disagreement or two but that's just discussion, just using you as a springboard for a rant.

Sorry everyone else for the rant and wall of text. I know I'll get written-off as a one-eyed fan-boi but if you've you've got genuine tactical ideas for what Visma should have done instead of magical thinking like "he should have tried to attack further out" then I'll happily discuss. Visma are the only team that have tried to take it to Pogacar - the only team that could - and the pointing and laughing style of post is deeply uncharitable, to put it charitably.

Also, part of me ranting a bit is getting wound up by commentary elsewhere, which is much, much worse than even the worst posts on here (e.g. Belgian commentary team literally calling Jonas a pant-shïtter yesterday and the crap he took because of it). Nobody's fault here but it's already got me a little defensive.

But I'll leave this with Jorgenson's brother on BlueSky:

View attachment 781483

It's just a stupid bike race . No offence taken

 

[mididoctors]

They're off

 

[mididoctors]

Kasper asgreen attacks

 

[mididoctors]

No sign of Quinn . Healy trying to bridge to kasper

 

[mididoctors]

Abrahamsen and schmid?

 

[No Ta Doctor]

No sign of Quinn . Healy trying to bridge to kasper

I've got the eye-bleach on standby just in case.

Meanwhile Asgreen sitting out alone with four riders trying to bridge, he honestly looks like he could do this all day, but in reality needs to be away before the hills start

 

[Mo1959]

They're off

Not on ITV 4 until 1.

 

[mididoctors]

WvA and alaphillipe trying