Tour de France 2025 (CONTAINS SPOILERS!)

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Pblakeney

Senior Member
Likewise I thought far too much was made of the 'efforts' Pog made closing down Jorgenson. All he did was slightly up his pace for a short time which also meant all the others also had to anyway so I'm not seeing how Jonas or anyone else had it any easier (very marginal drafting aside). He also forced others to do the work to close Remco when he got a gap. If VLAB want to test him they probably need to find a way to make him work harder than he'd like tomorrow before the TT on Thursday but again, Jonas still has to put in pretty much the same effort if he wants to stay on Pog's wheel so I really don't see a huge benefit of these much vaunted team tactics.

A point made yesterday was that Jorgenson is close enough on GC (currently 5th place 1:37 behind Pogacar) that he could be VLAB plan B should Vingegaard blow up. Pogacar couldn't simply let him go.

VLAB tactics will probably be to tag team Pog on a long hard high climb. Worked in the past.
 

Pblakeney

Senior Member
And going back to the car for drinks and food etc, which saves having to accelerate back on and likely adds up to quite a bit of saved energy over three weeks. And the psychological benefit of having a teammate. Plus being able to help you chase back on if it goes to chute. And probably quite a few other things that don't happen if you're on your own.

Let's put it another way. If isolating riders didn't add to their workload then nobody would waste energy doing it.

At the pointy end of a stage the team car usually makes appearances.
 

No Ta Doctor

Senior Member
Likewise I thought far too much was made of the 'efforts' Pog made closing down Jorgenson. All he did was slightly up his pace for a short time which also meant all the others also had to anyway so I'm not seeing how Jonas or anyone else had it any easier (very marginal drafting aside). He also forced others to do the work to close Remco when he got a gap. If VLAB want to test him they probably need to find a way to make him work harder than he'd like tomorrow before the TT on Thursday but again, Jonas still has to put in pretty much the same effort if he wants to stay on Pog's wheel so I really don't see a huge benefit of these much vaunted team tactics.

Well the thing about tactics is they don't always work, but you have to try something if you want to compete. Visma's strategy is clear, they're going to try and tire Pog and UAE and then attack him in the mountains. Some days the tactics are going to gain you something, others maybe not. Yesterday they managed to isolate Pog and make him do marginally more work than he might have liked, and marginally more than Vingegaard, but it wasn't by a huge amount. They did, however, burn off his domestiques and get a stage win and morale boost for not all that much effort. And is that now two or three stages where UAE has declined to chase for the stage win? Pog can't be all that happy with that and Vingegaard can probably be pleased not to have ceded further bonus seconds on territory that's in Pog's favour.

It's also worth noting that stage after stage Pog has been saying that they'd changed their stage tactics because of what Visma had done. And it's good to be adaptable, but it shows they're being kept on their toes and that it's Visma that are currently in control of much of the race and UAE who are reactive.
 

mididoctors

Über Member
Yates suggested after the stage he'd been placed up the road as a tactical option if it developed that way but it didn't. He didn't seem to really work until he broke everybody else (a few efforts to follow wheels aside) and if your domestiques are that far ahead of everybody around them why wouldn't you want them to stretch their legs instead of soft pedaling and being sucked into a sprint that requires going even deeper? I appreciate the argument that you want to save energy, but you also need to build a winning culture and Yates' ruthlessness today is exactly the spirit they're going to need.

It didn't do any harm did it
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
Surely by virtue of arriving at the finish a number of minutes ahead of the leaders, he did a bit more work than he would have had he sat in the bunch. It also makes me chuckle that on an up and down day people seem to give drafting magical powers, like Yates barely had to pedal yesterday.

Yes we are over thinking this but it's a rest day so what the heck.

Sure Yates used a bit more energy than he would have if he'd been sat at the back of the peloton all day (rather than at the back of the break). A significant amount more? I have no idea.

But if he hadn't gone in the break, would he have been sat at the back of the peloton? Or would he have been doing stuff for Jonas and thus burning energy? Who knows what would have happened in that alternative universe?
 

mididoctors

Über Member
Visma need to get Jorgensen up the road . They tried with the kuss two up out the GC group on a climb and it didn't work .... They should try on stage 11 with victor on the flatter terrain
 

mididoctors

Über Member
Jorgensen is going to.fall out of GC if he sits in the GC group waiting for the MTF each day . Might as well try
 

mididoctors

Über Member
The alternative is Jorgensen loses time and becomes a super domestic and can get down the road for Jonas to jump.to. which is going to happen anyway
 

No Ta Doctor

Senior Member
Oscar Onley :laugh:

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TakeTheHighRoad

Active Member
I'm really warming to Oscar

The news that he is a cricket fan only enhances his reputation in my eyes

Does he have a link to the West Lothian Cycle Circuit, or is that Callum Thornley I'm thinking of?
 

Pross

Veteran
A point made yesterday was that Jorgenson is close enough on GC (currently 5th place 1:37 behind Pogacar) that he could be VLAB plan B should Vingegaard blow up. Pogacar couldn't simply let him go.

VLAB tactics will probably be to tag team Pog on a long hard high climb. Worked in the past.

They could just let him go, I don't see a scenario where Jorgensen wins the TdF. There are plenty of other teams with podium aspirations that would chase him down before he becomes a real threat. It could even cause discontent within the team like with Kuss at the Vuelta or Froome in 2012 but yes, it would be a risk. Ideally they'll neutralise the option on the first big mountain stage though.
 

KingstonGraham

Well-Known Member
While they have Kuss and Yates to be final domestiques (with van Aert to do his usual monster work in places he shouldn't be able to), they can afford to have both of them as leaders - I'd say Jorgenson would have at least as much chance as Evenepoel of being there or thereabouts through the mountains. See what happens if he attacks on Sunday.
 
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