Truck hazard

[Euro]

Hi Euro,
Good to see you back

You are right, they will not ban trucks completely from London, and we have already seen Boris diterhing around or trying to deflect from that, but there are alternatives to complete bans.

The working hours scenario is not a complete shock to me.
Not something we should ignore, but could be one layer in a many layered approach.

Cemex seems to be one company that has stuck in my mind since the the BBC 1 programme “War on Britain’s Roads”, with increased safety features and driver training (which took an outsider, someones mother, to come in and push), but I would like to see what the industry is doing to re-design these vehicles or use alternative transport methods..?

If 99% of the time a vehicle is on the road, should the vehicle not be designed for the road, and the site where it spends 1% of its time made to accomodate this?

In London we have the Thames and a Rail network, these are alternatives and London could try and make these an inviting alternative.
I know this may not be of much help outside of London though...

I just don't think an Air Horn on my bike is going to be of benefit to me personally, if I had to use that air horn to get a drivers attention then they have already done something badly wrong (as jarlrmai already showed in three videos), thankfully it seems to be a minority in my time on the road when it comes to lorries and only one really, really bad situation with an HGV.

7,000+ miles and counting with no offs on Central London and Greater London roads this year (2013), which is not bad considering most of it is commuting miles
.

Hi Frood! Thanks for that! Now here's another thing, maybe a loud horn is not the answer because the majority of HGV drivers are over 50 years old. Many, me included in their sixties. Hearing is not measured in our annual medical exam. We have a visual, Schnellen test;
Doc: Drive, can you read the top line of the chart?
Drive: What?
Doc: That'll be £120 (honestly), leave a cheque at reception.
We have experienced years of aural overload when we disconnect the red suzie (technical term: the curly wire that hangs out the back of the cab), hours sitting 18" from a 12 litre V8 and normal geriatric deterioration. What is the demographic of you cycle people? Our impression is young (< 30), British middle class, educated (> A-level), professional (> £25p.h.) multilingual (> 3 languages), fit (BMI and BP and pulse satisfactory)....go on, I'm right aren't I?
Now that the armed forces that used to be the main HGV catchment area) are a small to medium sized enterprise, the main source of younger drivers are not convicts (as an earlier Tory Minister suggested) but East Europeans. Now, I'm not racist but .....etc, etc
We have great respect for the Polish lads who were, after all, at war with Hitler long before we were, and are fit, work hungry educated and nice. But they come from a culture where they drive on the right and have their steering wheels on the wrong side. You try driving down the wrong side of the road!, reading foreign language signs, get here by driving from Poland (drive on the right), through Germany (drive on the right), through Holland etc. etc
Please translate the signs from our nearest neighbour:
Rappel
Priorite a droit
Tennez la gauche
Chausee deforme
Voie uniq
etc
and correct my French

and why should any youngsters fork out £2k to get an HGV licence when they are only going to get the minimum wage (or very nearly)


How are things in the nebula?

 

[dellzeqq]

RT - cyclists put themselves on the left hand side of buses and trucka all the time. That is..............kind of stupid. But it doesn't get them killed. What gets them killed is the kind of truck.

Now - this is not an ironcast rule, and I'd never suggest going left or right of a big vehicle without a bit of thought - I saw the aftermath of a young cyclist run over by a bus turning right, and it's a memory that won't fade away - but the concentration by the popular prints on undertaking is done at the expense of a consideration of what has happened - which is that cyclists have been hit by vehicles turning left while moving faster than the cyclist. Worse still, it overlooks the one you really cannot do too much about, which is the cyclist being hit from behind.

The above is based on what happens in London. The media attention, again, grossly distorts the risk, because London is a relatively safe place to ride a bike - but, as in all things, what happens here makes the headlines.

 

[Platinum]

I don't live in London, I live in a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere. And I'm scared to ride on the roads here, so I wouldn't even consider in a million years going on my bike in the middle of a big city.

But in Holland it is easy and comfortable, even when you're lost in the middle of a strange city. You're sometimes barely even aware that there's other traffic at all. They design their roads in the EXPECTATION that people will make mistakes. It's too easy for Boris to blame people when they inevitably make the mistakes that people are inevitably going to make, if it's not his fault then it makes it easy for him to continue doing nothing.

 

[Ganymede]

They design their roads in the EXPECTATION that people will make mistakes.

Now THAT makes sense... great post Platinum.

 

[srw]

But in Holland it is easy and comfortable, even when you're lost in the middle of a strange city. You're sometimes barely even aware that there's other traffic at all. They design their roads in the EXPECTATION that people will make mistakes. It's too easy for Boris to blame people when they inevitably make the mistakes that people are inevitably going to make, if it's not his fault then it makes it easy for him to continue doing nothing.

I've posted in a different thread that Holland may not be the nirvana you think. 6 deaths per year in Amsterdam (800,000 people) is lousy copared with 14 deaths per year in London (8,000,000 people), even adjusting for different cycling penetration.

 

[Frood42]

Hi Frood! Thanks for that!
... Many, me included in their sixties.

Experienced people who are willing to continue to learn I would consider to be one of the greatest assets to a company that there could be. There is no training that can replace that.

What is the demographic of you cycle people? Our impression is young (< 30), British middle class, educated (> A-level), professional (> £25p.h.) multilingual (> 3 languages), fit (BMI and BP and pulse satisfactory)....go on, I'm right aren't I?

"You cycle people"

I am young, 30 when I started cycling again, after a 14 year gap.

Middle class - I would say no - I was brought up on a farm in Suffolk. It was a house without double glazing and without central heating. The only way to get around was/is by car, public transport is appalling compared to London.
My dad was a farmer (tractor/forklift driver - not a landowner) and is now a bin man. My mum works at a holiday camp cleaning chalets. I wouldn't change my upbringing in anyway, but I would like to have the opportunity to win the lotto and get my parents a nice cottage somewhere, where they can retire early (if they want to that is).

A-Level educated - tick

Professional - tick, I work in IT in a specialist area, so pay is quite good, less than £45,000 per annum but still good.

Multilingual - not a chance! Unless you count Techy speak that is...

Fit - dear, oh dear, I wish! I do admit I have lost a little over 4 stone and have gone from Obese level 2 to overweight, but I still have a way to go... BP was borderline when I last had it checked quite some time ago... But I have cycled 7000 miles this year, so I must be doing ok.

the main source of younger drivers are not convicts (as an earlier Tory Minister suggested)

Tory minister - say no more...

but East Europeans....Polish lads ... and are fit, work hungry educated and nice. But they come from a culture where they drive on the right and have their steering wheels on the wrong side. You try driving down the wrong side of the road!, reading foreign language signs, get here by driving from Poland (drive on the right), through Germany (drive on the right), through Holland etc. etc

Yes, that is the job, it is difficult, but that is the job, a different sort of difficulty or stress to what I do, but that is the job.

Please translate the signs from our nearest neighbour:
Rappel - no idea, something to do with absailing..?
Priorite a droit - Priority right, or to the right or something like that...
Tennez la gauche - Tournez a gauche - left turn, or go left, or something like that...
Chausee deforme - no idea
Voie uniq - no idea
etc
and correct my French - pardon your french?

and why should any youngsters fork out £2k to get an HGV licence when they are only going to get the minimum wage (or very nearly)

Because they are being given charge of a heavy and large vehicle which can carry varying loads.
I would rather a company pays for it as an investment into that person.
My company has a policy where if they pay for training for me, and if I leave within a certain time frame I have to pay back some or all of the costs.

How are things in the nebula?

Things are good, the Vogons are still destroying planets to make hyperspace bypasses, but we manage to slow them down with the form filling and red tape, although they were far too good with it at the beginning and are still getting better at it. As long as they do not recite poetry all should be well.

Although I jinxed myself earlier today and had my first off from the bike tonight.
Nothing serious, just a scraped knee, but the rear mech on the bike sheared off .
I shall be posting in Commuting about it, perhaps it can be a pointer to someone...
No vehicles involved, just a nice shiny area of patched wet tarmac that was like black ice or mulched leaves, which I did not see and braked on when slowing for a zebra...

hey ho, no one hurt, so cannot complain
Except to grumble about being off the bike while it's fixed
Really need that n+1

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Nothing serious, just a scraped knee, but the rear mech on the bike sheared off .
I shall be posting in Commuting about it, perhaps it can be a pointer to someone...
No vehicles involved, just a nice shiny area of patched wet tarmac that was like black ice or mulched leaves, which I did not see and braked on when slowing for a zebra...

hey ho, no one hurt, so cannot complain
Except to grumble about being off the bike while it's fixed
Really need that n+1

With luck it was a clean break, so just a new hanger. Hope the knee doesn't swell up.

 

[Frood42]

With luck it was a clean break, so just a new hanger. Hope the knee doesn't swell up.

Looks like the hangar to me, going to take it to the bike shop near work, the 4 mile walk will do me good!

After cleaning the knee it looks like I got off really luckily.
Although the dried blood must have looked a sight on the DLR and Central lines... Or maybe it's normal for east London...

 

[Platinum]

I've posted in a different thread that Holland may not be the nirvana you think. 6 deaths per year in Amsterdam (800,000 people) is lousy copared with 14 deaths per year in London (8,000,000 people), even adjusting for different cycling penetration.

All the statistics that I've ever seen says that cycling in the Netherlands is safer than in the UK. It even feels so safe that everyone of any age group, children & elderly, men & women, rich & poor, ethnic minorities, everyone feels able to cycle there. (If you've got a source for your stat I'd like to see it.)

How many of those 6 deaths in Amsterdam you mention were from right-turning lorries on specific dangerous junctions?

In 2012, 200 people cycling were killed in the Netherlands, but of those 200 no less than 108 were over the age of 65! It becomes even more mind-boggling when you consider that 60% of all bicycle crashes with serious injuries were single vehicle crashes. No motor vehicle, no other cyclists, not even a pedestrian was involved. Dutch elderly seem to just fall off their bicycles and they often sustain severe injuries or they even die.

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/elderly-people-on-a-cycle-tour/

Of course London is a much bigger city than Amsterdam, but surely that means we should be trying even harder to safely accommodate our cyclists.

 

[bianchi1]

All the statistics that I've ever seen says that cycling in the Netherlands is safer than in the UK. It even feels so safe that everyone of any age group, children & elderly, men & women, rich & poor, ethnic minorities, everyone feels able to cycle there. (If you've got a source for your stat I'd like to see it.)

How many of those 6 deaths in Amsterdam you mention were from right-turning lorries on specific dangerous junctions?

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/elderly-people-on-a-cycle-tour/

Of course London is a much bigger city than Amsterdam, but surely that means we should be trying even harder to safely accommodate our cyclists.

This makes interesting reading

http://www.etsc.eu/documents/BIKE_PAL_Safety_Ranking.pdf

The Netherlands seems interesting in so much as they accept more cyclists = more cyclist deaths.

And seemingly they have had a higher percentage of cycle deaths due to goods vehicles


"Some 22% of the cyclists killed in the EU die following collisions with goods vehicles, a proportion higher than the proportion of traffic accounted for by goods vehicles. In Israel 48% of the cyclist deaths follow a collision with a goods vehicle. This proportion is 43% in Belgium, higher than the number of deaths following collisions with cars. The same is true for the Netherlands where 38% of cyclist deaths follow collisions with goods vehicles. Goods vehicle collisions also account for a considerable proportion of cyclist deaths in Great Britain with 33%, Denmark with 31% and Slovakia with 29%." Page 12

 

[Platinum]

Very interesting reading.

p17 Number of cyclist deaths per billion kilometres ridden
NL - 12.4 - 863.2 Kilometres cycled per person
GB - 22.4 - 79.7[!] Kilometres cycled per person

NL - 12.4 x 38% = 4.71
GB - 22.4 x 33% =7.39 deaths from goods vehicles per billion kilometres ridden

So your risk of death from HGVs is much lower in the Netherlands.

(edited to add)
p12 Netherlands has 20% of deaths from cars the UK 57%!
NL - 12.4 x 20% = 2.48
GB - 22.4 x 57% =12.77 deaths from cars per billion kilometres ridden.
That's an incredible difference. To me that shows it's wrong to focus only on putting extra mirrors and cameras and loud beepers and guardrails all over lorries when improved infrastructure can reduce the even greater danger from cars as well.

Please if someone has better stats I would love to see them. I studied astrophysics, I try to base all my decisions on what can stand up after I try to demolish them. I'd love to learn that Britain really is a cycling nirvana, that would save me having to learn Dutch and move countries. But I've seen absolutely nothing to show that building good infrastructure is a bad thing.

 

[srw]

All the statistics that I've ever seen says that cycling in the Netherlands is safer than in the UK.

My stat was for Amsterdam and London - it's Amsterdam that's often held up as the model that London should follow. My immediate source is an article by Andrew Gilligan for the Guardian; it's easy enough to google to confirm his raw stats are correct.

Of course London is a much bigger city than Amsterdam, but surely that means we should be trying even harder to safely accommodate our cyclists.

Of course. But as Gilligan points out, it's not as simple as sloganeering.

 

[discominer]

Cynthia Barlow (roadpeace) on the Today programme just now, making sense. As soon as 'cyclists wearing headphones' raised its ugly head she dealt with it head on.

 

[Platinum]

My stat was for Amsterdam and London - it's Amsterdam that's often held up as the model that London should follow. My immediate source is an article by Andrew Gilligan for the Guardian; it's easy enough to google to confirm his raw stats are correct.

Of course. But as Gilligan points out, it's not as simple as sloganeering.

NL - 863.2 Kilometres cycled per person
GB - 79.7 Kilometres cycled per person

That's about 11x the distance cycled by the average person in the Netherlands compared to Britain. Let's assume that proportion also holds in the cities. (central Amsterdam actually has a 60% modal share, greater Amsterdam 38% (http://amsterdamize.com/2011/11/21/bicycle-cultures-are-man-made/) London 3% http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/12/30/some-london-cycling-statistics/, although I've heard that Blackfriars Bridge and other places have 45% share in the rush hour. 38%/3% = 12.7 x the modal share)

Amsterdam with its population a 10th of that of London, cycling 11x as much, if people were dying there at the same rate we see in London you would expect to see 1.1 deaths in Amsterdam for every 1 in London. But we don't, your numbers of 6/14 = 0.43 deaths in Amsterdam for every 1 in London, less than half the death rate of London.

That's even less than the figures for the whole countries from the pdf bianchi1 posted, that's 12.4/22.4 = 0.55 deaths in the Netherlands for every one in Britain, [edited to remove phrase my maths doesn't directly back up] So yes, Amsterdam is a place we should be emulating.

It still doesn't add up, Gilligan's stat looks impressive on the surface but doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[marknotgeorge]

If you read a survival handbook, there'll no doubt be a section on fungi, and how although there are fungi that are perfectly edible, there are those that will kill you in various nasty ways. The upshot is that in a survival situation, unless you're very sure which varieties are which, the limited nutritional benefits make them not worth it.

I mention this because I get the impression that some of the arguments are akin to screaming at Mother Nature for making poisonous mushrooms. Fit to be on the roads? Purely for the purposes of protecting a road user from harm, a device that requires the soft, squishy road user to wrap him or herself around a load-bearing structure is clearly not fit for purpose. But then, that's not what a bike's designed to do. Just like a truck isn't currently designed to prevent it colliding with a cyclist. It's designed to enable the supply of things like homes, computers, dog food and bike parts to people like us that from a quick scan of this thread consume some or all of those things. Unless your Ultegra bits were hand delivered from Sakai by a bloke on a rickshaw, you're part of the problem too.

Yes, things need changing. But with the best will in the world that won't happen instantly. We need solutions that will deal with how things are now, as well as those that make things how they should be.