True speed of average car commute

[MacB]

I'm not convinced that including the working time is strictly valid, given that if the employee gave up their car tomorrow their working hours would still remain the same, it would instead translate into more disposable income. Even then, some of that income would be eroded by the cost of the alternative method of transport (cycling would be cheaper but public transport may well not be).

There is also the assumption that on average people replace their car every 3-4 years and always buy a brand new one. Is this really valid?

I don't think your first point is in question it's rather what people get in return for their use of their disposable income. I only think the analogy breaks down when using the wroking hours to reduce the mph averages. Demonstrating a true cost it's pretty fair, those with lower costs will generally have lower incomes as well.

This is an average and is not meant to refelct any individual circumstances. But it certainly gives you the framework to see how much of your life is actually devoted to paying for a car.

 

[GrasB]

(AA) 2009 standing costs per annum of petrol cars under 4 years old
for cars priced at £12,000-£14,000 new = approx £3,000
for cars priced at £14000-£22,000 - approx £4,000
(split the difference figure) £3,500 running costs for average car)

Question, why should this be factored into the cost of commuting? Speaking personally I have 2 cars both of which were bought for reasons completely dis-associated with commuting & while my other half does commute in them she does so because they're on the drive. Adding to that most people I know who don't drive to work also own a car.

Secondly, what about costs of cycling, this is the year to date excluding re-building my Marin:
* Tyres & tubes - £120
* Cycling clothes/shoes - £450, admittedly this year has been an expensive one as most of my commute clothes/shoes seemed to have worn out.
* Replacement of Wheel set - £120 p/a (£370 over 3 years, a typical wheelset life for me)
* Other mechanical parts for repair - £170
Total costs: £860

Cost difference between the cars sitting on the drive & me commuting:
* 590L of petrol/diesel at an ave price of £1.10 (this year) - £650
* Insurance changes - £80
* Est. extra servicing costs - £220 (+1/3 of fuel, going on current fuel:servce parts ratio, though it'll actually be lower!)
Total costs: £890

 

[Norm]

To follow up on Grasb's comments...

The cost is reckoned to maintain a car of four years old and less - ie the premiss is that you're buying a new one each 4 years or so.

I do agree with the thinking behind this thread, that cars cost lots more than most realise, but...

Let's be fair though, and count door-to-door times. Your car won't be nearly as quick then, because you're leaving out a large part of the journey.

For me, I get going a lot quicker in the car rather than the bike or, even more so, the motorbike. It takes seconds to unlock and, de-frosting excepted, drive off. For a bike trip, it takes longer to put my helmet (sorry, too emotive) gloves on than it takes to unlock the car and drive off. There is no pre-planning, as I don't need to dress for the weather, nor check the forecast.

I also don't need to pack my work clothes into a bag, remembering the shoes and spare socks, because I'm wearing them already to drive.

I wondered that. My 75 mile commute used to take about an hour and ten minutes. Now, my 12 mile commute takes perhaps 20 minutes in the car, and 45 or so on the bike.

Yup, my 20 miles takes 40 minutes in the car, it would take me over three times that long to cycle, which is an extra two hours a day.

Parking up and getting to the door often takes a considerable amount of time, much more so than with a bicycle.

Absolutely not. Door to driving off in the car, probably 10 seconds. On the bike, 2 or 3 minutes, on a motorbike, at least 10 minutes.

And let's say they've done a very strange thing for a car-interest group and overestimated car costs by a factor of 20-25%, a thousand quid or so. The average joe is still working 6 hours to make that 4-hour commute possible by car.

That's the important point, isn't it. You can play with the numbers to make it less of an issue but it's still a lot of working to pay to get to work.

I've just scrapped my 15 year old astra - bought for £6,000 in Jan 1995

The last car we had was an Astra, also scrapped but it was a couple of years older. Running costs of old cars are half of feck all, because you can do most things with a screwdriver, a pair of mole grips and a reel of gaffer tape.

Another point that people have made is that they feel some "need" the car to get to work. For me, I need a car for lots of reasons, which is why I have three! Although their total value is less than one of the new ones in the OP, the commuting car is mostly a family wagon.

 

[al78]

Question, why should this be factored into the cost of commuting? Speaking personally I have 2 cars both of which were bought for reasons completely dis-associated with commuting & while my other half does commute in them she does so because they're on the drive. Adding to that most people I know who don't drive to work also own a car.

Secondly, what about costs of cycling, this is the year to date excluding re-building my Marin:
* Tyres & tubes - £120
* Cycling clothes/shoes - £450, admittedly this year has been an expensive one as most of my commute clothes/shoes seemed to have worn out.
* Replacement of Wheel set - £120 p/a (£370 over 3 years, a typical wheelset life for me)
* Other mechanical parts for repair - £170
Total costs: £860

Cost difference between the cars sitting on the drive & me commuting:
* 590L of petrol/diesel at an ave price of £1.10 (this year) - £650
* Insurance changes - £80
* Est. extra servicing costs - £220 (+1/3 of fuel, going on current fuel:servce parts ratio, though it'll actually be lower!)
Total costs: £890

It is debatable whether you are comparing like for like there. It seems that you are comparing a year of unusually high cycling costs with a year of near-normal car costs (e.g you don't spend £450 on clothes every year). How would the comparison hold up if you were to compare, say, five year averages?

How come you have to replace your wheels every year?

 

[MacB]

It is debatable whether you are comparing like for like there. It seems that you are comparing a year of unusually high cycling costs with a year of near-normal car costs (e.g you don't spend £450 on clothes every year). How would the comparison hold up if you were to compare, say, five year averages?

How come you have to replace your wheels every year?

Some fair questions and I would add that there is a difference between optional and compulsory expenditure. VED(unless you spend on a newer low emissions car) and insurance aren't optional and, if you want to move the car anywhere, petrol isn't optional either. So there is a minimum car spend that you really can't get below. Bike spend can be kept really low, though a lot of us don't.

 

[GrasB]

It is debatable whether you are comparing like for like there. It seems that you are comparing a year of unusually high cycling costs with a year of near-normal car costs (e.g you don't spend £450 on clothes every year). How would the comparison hold up if you were to compare, say, five year averages?

I did only have this years costs to hand but typically in a year (prices from CRC):
pair of shoes (£80)
1 or 2 sets of gloves (£30)
a new top (£70)
a pair of longs/shorts. (£60)
or £240

Most years I could give you some project or something I've done to make the year exceptional for costs. Bike rebuilds, clothing costs, accident recovery costs, etc. I've deliberately NOT included the £1100 I spent building up the road fixie & rebuilding the Marin in my costings as these are outside the scope of commuting demands but I feel that the extra spend on clothing this year is a reasonable example of extra costs incurred of having & maintaining my commute bikes.

My bikes & cars get serviced to the same standards of high specification items replaced on an 'as needed' basis by my self or a professional as required. I do replace things earlier rather than latter but that's true for both cars & bikes.

How come you have to replace your wheels every year?

Er I don't... My last 2 wheel sets cost me £345 & £390 respectively & have lasted around 6 years between them, that works out around £120 p/a on wheels. Why do I replace them every 3 years? Cause the rim walls are thinning out by then, the bearings & axles have seen better days, the spokes are all over the place in terms of thread in the nipple (meaning the wheel needs to be re-spoked). Not much of the wheel left that's worth keeping.

 

[jimboalee]

Are you a bike owner, a cyclist, or an accountant?

 

[WeeE]

I'm not convinced that including the working time is strictly valid, given that if the employee gave up their car tomorrow their working hours would still remain the same, it would instead translate into more disposable income.

But it's not given. Think about it.

Back in the 1970s, everywhere but factories basically worked office hours: these days - well, most kinds of workplaces are open at least 12 hours a day, for a variety of reasons.

I hardly know anyone who does 9 to 5. Or Monday to Friday every week, for that matter.

Employers aren't just willing to have people come and do (say) three ten-hour shifts a week, or (say) five six-hour days, or (say) a 30-hour week averaged out over the month, with 3-4 days off at a time - they're desperate for it.

It means they can fit two people in, and their holidays and whatnot, and fill a given slot (workstation, job description) for 60-70 hours a week (dealing with the branch in Iowa or always having experienced people on weekends) instead of paying one unhappy, exhausted & inefficient soul to do a 48-hour week.

 

[WeeE]

This is an average and is not meant to refelct any individual circumstances. But it certainly gives you the framework to see how much of your life is actually devoted to paying for a car.

That's what I meant. God, how I wish I had been able to write that sentence!

 

[dellzeqq]

I've just scrapped my 15 year old astra - bought for £6,000 in Jan 1995

Running costs for the past few years: £330 insurance, £120 Road tax, £200 average mot and service. 1 major repair bill (£400) in the 15 year period

and that has to be the sensible way to do it. But, as you and I live in the same part of the world I think you'd recognise that a lot of people do it the stupid way - newish car stuck in jams as cyclists whizz down the bus lane. For those people the average speed, adjusted to take account of the time working to pay for the car must be way lower than Illich's five miles an hour. Way, way lower.

 

[GrasB]

Are you a bike owner, a cyclist, or an accountant?

yes, yes (surely the previous is a requirement of this?) & no.

Thing is finance packages are only as good as the data you enter, spend an extra 5s entering data & you can get so much more information back out.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

But, as you and I live in the same part of the world ...

I suppose any average commuting time figure is going to be dragged skywards by those who commute in London traffic. I suspect those on this thread who are arguing that a car commute is not such a big deal as all that (like me) are those who commute on largely traffic free rural roads.

 

[MacB]

I suppose any average commuting time figure is going to be dragged skywards by those who commute in London traffic. I suspect those on this thread who are arguing that a car commute is not such a big deal as all that (like me) are those who commute on largely traffic free rural roads.

traffic levels will have a significant impact on time and, even more importantly, on quality of life. Being more rural I could never reach work as fast on a bike as in my car. It wasn't too far off some times though, my times for the 20 miles were:-

bike - 77 to 90 minutes - the 90 would have been a bad day or adverse weather - mornings I'd shave at home, throw on cycle gear, then ride in and shower change at work, full locker and facilities available. Evenings throw on cycle gear and shower and change at home.
car - 45 to 75 minutes - normal probably 60 minutes
public transport - if I cycled to station then about 100 minutes was fastest possible

I suppose the cycling adds a bit of time via the changing etc but not much. What it did do was totally revolutionise my life quality at work and at home. Though it could be tiring I felt more mentally alert and far less grouchy around the home. It also removed that feeling of guilt I used to get because I was too tired to do any exercise or join in properly with the kids.

I think your work has to lend itself to this sort of thing though. Permanent lockers, decent showers and secure cycle parking are important. The type of work matters as well, don't think I could do 40 miles a day plus a manual job. Being in a fixed location is also a big part, if you need to travel around the logistics get to be a hassle.

 

[XmisterIS]

The true speed of an average car commute is, in my experience, a lot longer than the same thing on a bike!

My typical times over the 10 miles from Portsmouth (Fratton) to West Fareham in heavy rush-hour are as follows:

motorbike or pushbike - 35 mins.
car - between one and two hours.

From Southampton to Fareham (12 miles) at rush hour can take even longer by car. Takes about 45 mins by pushbike and 30 by motorbike.

No joke!

Guess which form of transport I choose ...

I feel couped-up and pissed off when I have to use the car

 

[J4CKO]

You lot are really missing the point with cars and how they are justified.

It isnt just down to comfort, cost, convenience and laziness the way cars are used in this country (and many others), by most sane reasoning some of the cars we buy and the journeys we do are fairly ludicrous, I see a neighbour get in a 70k Range Rover to go and get a paper (to be fair he walks his dogs miles every day) which is less than a half mile round trip, a seventy thousand (plus private plate) pound vehicle that weighs nearly three tonnes to take one average male half a mile to get a newspaper, to me, thats kind of back to front.

He can obviously afford it but nobody needs such a big expensive, powerful vehicle simply to get around, the cost of the newpaper, say a quid compared to the fuel, wear and tear, depriciation on such a vehicle for that half mile will be a lot more than that.

So, why do people do this, I think its human nature, a bit of amateur psychology would probably explain it, its like a point is being made, big cars are generally bought to show off a bit and its an opportunity to flex ones personal financial worth and ego, plus seeign as you are paying for it you may as well use it and no crime was committed as he is perfectly at liberty to do so, also driving a car like that is an enjoyable experience by and large, feeling of power, the comfort and the reassurance that you have one ok in life.

However, really, its unsustainable, the towns are gridlocked with massive (compared to the usual average sized owner even a Smart is huge) cars taking up a lot of space compared to the people in them, sat waiting, burning fuel, witness the third world contries moving thousands of people by bike and moped every day in crowded cities but we sit there hoping that people will see our true worth by the type of tin box we are sat in, dont get me wrong I am not above all this and am a bit of a car fiend but I can see it for what it is.

All these calculations are irrelevant, its the kind of thing people do in private but when they are out there sat in their mobile, leather lined, surround sounded, 300 hp chariot with knobs on the last thing they are thinking about is the cost, its whether that nice looking girl has checked out the wheels or whether other men are looking jealously at it, demoralise the male opposition and make the potential breeding partners see you would be a good bet, ok its a bit more complicated than that, some genuinely arent interested but a lot are so a push bike may cost nothing but it wont get you a shag ! (though the rippling body underneath may) not that cars do either but a lot think they might and every little helps.