Unknown frameset.

[PHL67]

Not sure what it is but it is nice.
Any of the members any idea on its make and age.
I am pretty sure it is very old.
Number on forks and bb 495. 1825.

Smaller numbers 01004.
Badge holes around the side of headstock.
Any help greatly received.

 

[biggs682]

Some nice fork crown lugs and greese ports on head tube and bottom bracket

 

[Stompier]

The rear dropouts suggest that it’s nothing special

 

[carpenter]

^^^^^ not sure about that - surely it depends on when cast dropouts first appeared and how old the frame in question is?

I have an F C Parkes - I think 1950's and a Carpenter (1957 from serial number), both quite aspirational bikes at the time which have pressed dropouts.
Time and place for everything

 

[carpenter]

@PHL67 - Could you put up a photo of the full frame?

 

[Illaveago]

The fact that the head badge has locating holes on the sides of the steerer tube would suggest an unusually large badge.
A gander through head badges on the net may produce a likely make .

 

[Stompier]

^^^^^ not sure about that - surely it depends on when cast dropouts first appeared and how old the frame in question is?

I have an F C Parkes - I think 1950's and a Carpenter (1957 from serial number), both quite aspirational bikes at the time which have pressed dropouts.
Time and place for everything

'Aspirational' and 'quality' are not necessarily the same thing though. And unless the frame was made around 3000BC, it has always been possible to cast dropouts

 

[carpenter]

I think that both bike frames giving delightful rides at 60+ years is a fair indication of their quality

 

[Illaveago]

Raynal Cycles Birmingham have a head badge with hole on either side .

 

[Illaveago]

Sun, Rudge Whitworth and Hercules also have large badges with holes on the sides .

 

[Stompier]

I think that both bike frames giving delightful rides at 60+ years is a fair indication of their quality

Well, 'delightful' is a somewhat subjective term, but I don't doubt you enjoy the frames.

 

[carpenter]

Absolutely right, "delightful" is a subjective term,
You are also correct that "aspirational' does not indicate that an item is a "quality' product.
However just the fact that these frames are still in use after sixty years suggests that they were/are a quality product.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to have picked up on my point that dismissing a frame as "nothing special" because it has pressed dropouts is ignoring the possibility that the frame was made before cast dropouts were used in bike frames.

Does anyone here know when cast dropouts became available and de rigueur for "special frames" ?
And explain what a "special" frame is? 😂

 

[Illaveago]

Dunelt also had a head badge with holes on the sides . Raynal bought the rights to Dunelt in 1937 and produced them at their factory in Birmingham . Raleigh bought Raynal in the early 60's to acquire the Dunelt brand .

 

[Stompier]

Unfortunately, you don't seem to have picked up on my point that dismissing a frame as "nothing special" because it has pressed dropouts is ignoring the possibility that the frame was made before cast dropouts were used in bike frames.

And unless the frame was made around 3000BC, it has always been possible to cast dropouts

 

[carpenter]

Now your just getting even more silly. I think that the Chinese first cast metals about 2500 years ago (not 5000 years ago )

As for making bike parts as soon as the technology was available well really; Aluminium was first commercially produced in the mid 19th century, it wasn't until the 1960's that a bike frame was made with it.

Serious question (again) when were cast dropouts first used on bikes, or do you just not know?

"Special" bike? or would you rather just forget that ?

Just to help here's a special bike for you: