What makes you visible on the road (at night)

[srw]

In general, too much effort is spent around hiviz and helmets, and far too little on good riding and traffic skills which can easily have a hundred times the effect on one's safety.

It depends. Some people take the good riding for granted and don't think of mentioning it. Some people don't do good riding, so don't mention it. Some people believe Cyclecraft is a bible. You don't know which is which.

 

[Tynan]

but hi viz and helmets are easy and instant to acquire while skills have to be learnt one way or another, and experience takes time

it's not an either or

Surely even dipped lights throw light forwards a fair way and there must be reflection off the road surface, and even street lighting make a huge difference to no lighting

Cars couldn't drive at 30mph and more in an urban environment if they couldn't see a decent way ahead of them

 

[BentMikey]

but hi viz and helmets are easy and instant to acquire while skills have to be learnt one way or another, and experience takes time

it's not an either or

Unfortunately it does seem to be, because it seems that many people get the hiviz and helmet, and now that's done, that's the limit of their efforts on safety. Their motivation and realisation on working on their roadcraft is robbed by this. There's a stupid insistence on how important helmets and hiviz are for your safety, when they are probably the lowest on the list of important and effective things to do.

srw, it seems you're wrong on reflectives not being lit up by dipped headlights. There are enough people commenting that they do, are you trying to suggest they all have badly adjusted headlights? Not very probable.

As for the light clothing - I think you're wrong, as do quite a few other posters, as does the photo. Time for a rethink.

 

[gbb]

And of course where do most accidents happen? At junctions where it's much more likely that their lights aren't pointing your way, not along the straightaways where they can see you perfectly easily with or without reflectives.

What I dislike is the number of posts with people indignantly talking about their HiViz and how the driver couldn't possibly miss seeing them, and yet they did. It's obvious they are placing far too much trust in their hiviz, when it's their own roadcraft they need to be focusing on. In general, too much effort is spent around hiviz and helmets, and far too little on good riding and traffic skills which can easily have a hundred times the effect on one's safety.[/QUOTE]


Thats rather an assumption BM...
Take my case...I'm riding the main road, i have absolute right of way.
Until the last few seconds, i cant be absolutely sure the car thats going to enter my road..is actually going to see me. I have good lights, hiviz, right of way and i assume after many years of cycling, good roadcraft.

Cyclecraft, roadcraft, whatever...will not help you if a driver doesnt see you. The fact is i took EVERY possible step to make myself visible, and short of stopping in the main road, just in case he didnt see me, what else can you do.
The fact is, i took all possible steps to do the right thing, to be undone by someone who didnt bother to look properly.

The trouble is Cyclecraft / roadcraft, is something YOU can do (quite rightly) to protect yourself. But it's undone in one second by a driver who doesnt even know (or care) what cyclecraft means.

A balance, as always is the best answer. Learn cyclecraft, but making yourself visible is invaluable...perhaps more important.

 

[BentMikey]

You went for Hiviz visibility first, and assumed it would protect you. Wrong way around I think, exactly as I pointed out above.

The point is you can be seen perfectly well without hiviz in the daytime, if people are looking, which point you seem to agree with in your post. Add lights and BS standard retro-reflectors after dark, and that's plenty at night too. The rest is good cyclecraft - road positioning, observation, and anticipation.

Every time I've had a close call like that, I had that little voice whispering in my ear to say something is wrong. Usually I don't ignore it, and that's good cyclecraft. Once in a long while I don't listen, and don't observe the body language of the car and driver, and then my minor failure of defensive riding compounds the driver's major error, and I'm caught out like you were.

I think your focus on hiviz, lights, and your "right of way" (it's actually priority, not right of way) caused you not to pay attention to that little voice.

 

[mickle]

I liken night-time visibility issues with the anti camoflage strategy used by poisonous beasties. What we should be aiming to do is communicate, unambiguously, by modifying our appearance; what we are (a cyclist), where we are and how fast we are going. And we need to communicate this information as quickly as possible to allow an appropriate response.

We need to consider how motorist perception operates in the environment we share, so consider; Drivers are most aware of the area below their eye level, which happens to correspond to the range of their headlamps. In poor visibility conditions they lower their field of vision even further in order to follow road markings and kerbs.

It's also worth bearing in mind that in the darkness an isolated light source mounted high up in their field of vision registers as 'far away' whilst one mounted lower registers as nearby.

We know that human perception registers movement more readily than it does a static object. This is the phenomenon which flashing lamps exploit. More importantly perhaps a flashing lights communicates 'cyclist' (and it's all about communication). The only issue with flashing lamps versus non-flashing is that it can be difficult for the viewer to establish where the source is in the environment (This may or may not be a bad thing, does a little ambiguity force the approaching driver to establish the location, speed and direction of the blinking light? I don't know).

I think we can break our illumination strategy down to two things; active and passive.
Passive is all the stuff which shows up within their normal field of vision, ie, when they are approaching us. Red lamps and reflectors.
Active is the stuff we use when we are approaching them.

This is my set-up for my commuter. My route includes busy urban roads and an unlit bike path.
Active, a pair of 3 led lights, between them (on constant) bright enough to light my way in the dark. In town I have one on flash and one on constant and, importantly I aim them at motorists' eye level. No point having them aimed at the ground, I need to bounce their light off their retinas.
Passive, two led lamps, one on 'disco' on the seat post, the other, on constant, mounted at hub level. My bike also has reflective strips in the mudgourds and I affix 3M reflective tape between the spokes around half of each wheel. My appearance in headlamps is of two flashing discs. I'm effectively painting a 3D moving picture of a bicycle using their light. It enables drivers to instantly establish what I am, where I am on the road and exactly how fast I am going and I show up early in their field of vision.

I don't wear them myself but reflective ankle bands serve the same purpose.

Just my tw'pennies worth..

 

[mickle]

Oh, and I'll stick shitty needles in my eyes before I wear flouro.

 

[Niall Estick]

That's a Ronhill hiviz gilet - it's the same colour as the road under sodium lighting. It'll probably show up OK against a dark background, but the problem in the urban environment is that many surfaces are reflecting yellow sodium streetlight, and that's where the fluo part simply blends in. There's no UV light, so the fluo doesn't flouresce as it does in daylight.

I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the design of hiviz and how it works.

What hi-viz gilet? I can't see it. All I can see is a road

 

[gbb]

You went for Hiviz visibility first, and assumed it would protect you. Wrong way around I think, exactly as I pointed out above.

The point is you can be seen perfectly well without hiviz in the daytime, if people are looking, which point you seem to agree with in your post. Add lights and BS standard retro-reflectors after dark, and that's plenty at night too. The rest is good cyclecraft - road positioning, observation, and anticipation.

Every time I've had a close call like that, I had that little voice whispering in my ear to say something is wrong. Usually I don't ignore it, and that's good cyclecraft. Once in a long while I don't listen, and don't observe the body language of the car and driver, and then my minor failure of defensive riding compounds the driver's major error, and I'm caught out like you were.

I think your focus on hiviz, lights, and your "right of way" (it's actually priority, not right of way) caused you not to pay attention to that little voice.

I think were're losing the point. You're once again assuming i put hi viz first...Why do you think that, based on what. You're not in my head, you dont know me, my riding style, my roadcraft.
Whether i have observed good roadcraft, understand everything about Cyclecraft, worn hi viz, had good lights etc etc...NONE of that will help me if a driver doesnt look.
BUT...the percentage chances a driver WILL see me are increased if i wear hi viz. In this case, it didnt, but i did say in previous, nothing is 100% effective. I just think Hi Viz increases your chance of being seen. It'd be bloody hard to disagree in 95% of situations.

As it was, the driver approached the junction, stopped, i entered the throw of his lights...and he pulled out with me right in front of him. Up to that very second, he'd behaved as he should. Co-incidentally, as i approach such situations, i always 'shake' my handlebars, hopefully this will cause my light beam to 'flash' at the driver.
At the point he pulls out, i have maybe 1 second to get out of the way. NO road positioning is going to help me if he does that. Hi Viz didnt on that occasion, and i fail to see how roadcraft or cyclecraft can either.

As i said before...it's about balance. No one thing is going to do it for you 100% of the time....but i'll stick with Hi Viz anyway (and my 20 years of cycling experience..and i still read cyclecraft occasionally )

To get back to the original OPs question....what can i do to make myself more visible.?
Cyclecraft / roadcraft takes time to perfect. In the meantime, in a effort to stay safe and seen....how can anyone argue against Fluoro or hi Viz clothing. It aint pretty, but its better to look a dork ( i dont think that BTW, but it seems some do) and be seen in 95% of situations.
If a driver cant see you with Hi Viz...he's definately not going to see you any other way is he.

 

[mickle]

If they aren't looking how are they more likely to see hi-viz?
If they are looking what difference will hi-viz make?

Hi-viz is irrelevant. My big concern about it is that at some point an insurance company lawyer will suggest that a victim of the danger posed by poor drivers is liable for their own injuries. It is not a legal requirement to wear hi-viz. Those who wear it make the roads more dangerous for those who choose not to. I've had a couple of encounters with drivers who swerved at me because 'You're supposed to be wearing hi-viz'.

Country roads, main beams and high closing speeds I'll accept that hi-viz garments might be a useful additional safety measure. In town? I think it has a negative effect on the safety of cyclists.

 

[mickle]

There was a survey done years ago which suggested that the best colour to wear on a bike was pink, because it's an unusual colour but also drivers respond best to it.

 

[mickle]

Twinkle for girls. They had a great review of handlebar streamers last issue.

 

[MartinC]

I liken night-time visibility issues with the anti camoflage strategy used by poisonous beasties. What we should be aiming to do is communicate, unambiguously, by modifying our appearance; what we are (a cyclist), where we are and how fast we are going. And we need to communicate this information as quickly as possible to allow an appropriate response............I don't wear them myself but reflective ankle bands serve the same purpose.

Just my tw'pennies worth..

+1

Cracking post, matches my thoughts and experiences very well.

I recently changed the IQ Fly on the front of my utility bike for an IQ Cyo recently. The effect is marked - people give you your priority really smartly. It's like driving the car. Really bright lights where people expect to see them is a big factor at night.

 

[BentMikey]

If they aren't looking how are they more likely to see hi-viz?
If they are looking what difference will hi-viz make?

Hi-viz is irrelevant. My big concern about it is that at some point an insurance company lawyer will suggest that a victim of the danger posed by poor drivers is liable for their own injuries. It is not a legal requirement to wear hi-viz. Those who wear it make the roads more dangerous for those who choose not to. I've had a couple of encounters with drivers who swerved at me because 'You're supposed to be wearing hi-viz'.

Country roads, main beams and high closing speeds I'll accept that hi-viz garments might be a useful additional safety measure. In town? I think it has a negative effect on the safety of cyclists.

Well said Mickle!! Gbb seems to totally miss the point that hiviz did nothing for his incident, and that he's perfectly visible without it, and that cyclecraft is about accounting for those drivers that don't look.

I'm less sure on your flashing light strategy - I tend to keep mine on constant because I don't want to look like a bicycle. If I do, drivers tend to take the mickey. This is why I like my Fenix lights - they often cause drivers to hold back through road narrowings as they assume I'm a motorvehicle. I think that a flashing light, like hiviz, might be useful on a fast country road, perhaps, but am not sure.

 

[gbb]

Well said Mickle!! Gbb seems to totally miss the point that hiviz did nothing for his incident, and that he's perfectly visible without it, and that cyclecraft is about accounting for those drivers that don't look.

I'm less sure on your flashing light strategy - I tend to keep mine on constant because I don't want to look like a bicycle. If I do, drivers tend to take the mickey. This is why I like my Fenix lights - they often cause drivers to hold back through road narrowings as they assume I'm a motorvehicle. I think that a flashing light, like hiviz, might be useful on a fast country road, perhaps, but am not sure.

Jeez BM, you talk a good deal of sense in this forum (most of the time )....but if you take the time to actually read my posts instead of taking umbrage because my opinion differs from yours...you'd see on two posts i said...
Post 1...'and in my case, they were'nt in his lights until the last second, just when its too late'
'They'..being the reflectives

Post 3...'At the point he pulls out, i have maybe 1 second to get out of the way. NO road positioning is going to help me if he does that. Hi Viz didnt on that occasion


I quite clearly stated Hiviz / reflectives wont always help you.
I quite clearly stated on 2 occasions that Hiviz / refectives must be better 95% of the time...infering thats not 100% of the time.



Read posts in their entirety...pleeeese

Whats happening is some peoples aversion to hiviz (and thats your choice , quite rightly) is affecting your judgement of whether it has any value.

Why then do all motorway workers, council workers, police, ...every bugger wear them if they're so useless. Is every wearer, cyclist or not, deluding themselves...i think not.

Its about choice. Personally i think hiviz has some benefit.
As i stated, it wont always help you.
Not that its really relevent, i very occasionally wear hiviz for commuting, although i usually wear a fluoro jacket (not Hi Viz).
If riding at night in unlit country roads... i think i prefer HiViz. The reflective element of them can be seen far away. Anything you can do to forwarn a driver of your presence can only be a good thing.

If you disagree....fine. Its a free world.