What to do with - suspected - self-seeded apple trees in my lawn?

[Reynard]

The new growth is generally within the boundaries of the canopies of the trees (so maybe within a 2-3m radius of the trunk); however some is distinctly removed and the garden has a distinct gradient, which made me think of self-seeding if the fruit had hit the ground and rolled.

In that case, I think your assessment of self-seeded may well be correct.

If a rootstock suckers, then the new shoots tend to be fairly close to the trunk - although my experiences of this are mainly with various Prunus species, which will sucker like it's going out of fashion LOL! (One of the reasons sloe aka blackthorn makes such a damn good layered hedge.)

 

[PaulSB]

If you have seedlings keep in mind it can take 7 - 10 years to begin fruiting. The seedlings will not, or at least it's extremely unlikely, be the same variety as the parent plant. Most apple trees require compatible crossing to produce fruit. In your situation this is a matter of pure chance. You're looking at several years to find out if what you have is any good.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

If you have seedlings keep in mind it can take 7 - 10 years to begin fruiting. The seedlings will not, or at least it's extremely unlikely, be the same variety as the parent plant. Most apple trees require compatible crossing to produce fruit. In your situation this is a matter of pure chance. You're looking at several years to find out if what you have is any good.

Patience is a virtue of the gardener.
That is why a passion for gardening/growing fruit and veg mostly comes to one later in life

 

[wafter]

In that case, I think your assessment of self-seeded may well be correct.

If a rootstock suckers, then the new shoots tend to be fairly close to the trunk - although my experiences of this are mainly with various Prunus species, which will sucker like it's going out of fashion LOL! (One of the reasons sloe aka blackthorn makes such a damn good layered hedge.)

Thanks; from that assessment certainly sounds like they're self-seeded. I clearly have a lot to learn!

If you have seedlings keep in mind it can take 7 - 10 years to begin fruiting. The seedlings will not, or at least it's extremely unlikely, be the same variety as the parent plant. Most apple trees require compatible crossing to produce fruit. In your situation this is a matter of pure chance. You're looking at several years to find out if what you have is any good.

Thanks - I suppose the middle ground might be to dig up and keep one out of curiousity and bin the rest as I can't have the garden turning into a super-dense orchard!


Things have obviously progressed since I last posted; raising more questions!

I have two trees; one for whatever reason seems further along than the other (not sure if it's a different variety or an environment / resources thing) and I'm getting quite a few windfalls - especially off the smaller, apparently later-fruiting tree.

The area under the small tree is littered with small (c. 0.75" or less) fruits and both have dropped a few at maybe 1.5" or a bit more. What should I do with the tiny ones? Are they likely to grow if left to rot down or do they need to be a certain size / maturity before they're viable?

I've so far picked up about three good-size strawberry punnets' worth but I'll never get them all given the state of the lawn and access. How should I dispose of these? If I stick them in the compost is that just inviting them to sprout as soon as the compost is used?

There seems to be a hell of a lot of fruit on both trees and while I'm not well placed to use it (crap at cooking, low carb diet) my neighbour apparently loves baking and last year when the flat was unoccupied she was apparently eyeing the crop enviously, so hopefully she can make use of them. I also have an estranged mate who was looking for apples for cider-making so it's potentially an opportunity to further flog that particular dead horse; although I think him and his mrs are off the sauce now which might have blunted his enthusiasm.

I've also discovered that I have a hazel which is starting to produce nuts and apparently a grape vine; which I'm tempted to try trailing up the fence that separates my garden from next-ish doors. On top of that there's also some sort of plum / damsen effort too - seems whoever had the property before it was demolished / the garden divvied up was quite the fruit enthusiast

Edit: Forgot there's a tree I can't identify down the bottom of the garden too; which is fairly sparesly appointed and sprouting small berries which look familiar and I think will end up going red.

There doesn't appear to be much in the way of fauna in the garden to snaffle the produce - IIRC blackbirds will have a go at apples but none I've collected show any sign of this - perhaps they don't like the long grass / just don't visit the garden as there's little else in there for them. The area's quite urban with limited large trees so hopefully free of squirrels meaning I might get some nuts - which would do well in flapjacks once my low-carb resolve has inevitably collapsed.

The only signs of animal life I've seen is some fox sh*t and what was left of a pigeon; which presumably either ended up a constituent part in said deposit or maybe succumbed to one of the neighbourhood cats..

 

[Pat "5mph"]

I have two trees; one for whatever reason seems further along than the other (not sure if it's a different variety or an environment / resources thing) and I'm getting quite a few windfalls - especially off the smaller, apparently later-fruiting tree.

The area under the small tree is littered with small (c. 0.75" or less) fruits and both have dropped a few at maybe 1.5" or a bit more. What should I do with the tiny ones? Are they likely to grow if left to rot down or do they need to be a certain size / maturity before they're viable?

The unripe fruit on the ground is called June drop, trees with fruit that matures in autumn drop non viable fruits in June.
The trees do not have enough resources to get all their fruit to maturity, or it's too heavy for the branches, so they drop the surplus in June.
I would leave the dropped fruit for the wildlife.
Some of it will decompose, returns to feed the earth.
Should any self seed, it's easy to pull them up.

I've so far picked up about three good-size strawberry punnets' worth but I'll never get them all given the state of the lawn and access. How should I dispose of these? If I stick them in the compost is that just inviting them to sprout as soon as the compost is used?

Nay, it's not as easy as that.
A few might sprout in the compost heap, but if you cover it during winter the chances are slim.
I use empty bulk compost bags from when I used to buy it (make my own now).
As I said up thread, this summer has been crazy for self seeding trees, it's rarely like that.

There seems to be a hell of a lot of fruit on both trees and while I'm not well placed to use it (crap at cooking, low carb diet) my neighbour apparently loves baking and last year when the flat was unoccupied she was apparently eyeing the crop enviously, so hopefully she can make use of them. I also have an estranged mate who was looking for apples for cider-making so it's potentially an opportunity to further flog that particular dead horse; although I think him and his mrs are off the sauce now which might have blunted his enthusiasm.

Lovely!
You can also donate some fruit (when it's matured) to local food banks, or offer it for free on Facebook.
In autumn I see several folks with apple and pear trees asking people to come pick the surplus.

I've also discovered that I have a hazle which is starting to produce nuts

Hazel trees can become gigantic, be aware.
You will be lucky if the squirrels leave you a handful!

apparently a grape vine;

Lovely, but it's difficult to get grapes unless it's in a polytunnel.
However, you can use the leaves to make Dolmades, stuffed vine leaves.

On top of that there's also some sort of plum / damsen effort too

Fantastic!
My plum trees are young still, but one has a few fruits already.
I'm envious!

 

[wafter]

The unripe fruit on the ground is called June drop, trees with fruit that matures in autumn drop non viable fruits in June.
The trees do not have enough resources to get all their fruit to maturity, or it's too heavy for the branches, so they drop the surplus in June.
I would leave the dropped fruit for the wildlife.
Some of it will decompose, returns to feed the earth.
Should any self seed, it's easy to pull them up.

Nay, it's not as easy as that.
A few might sprout in the compost heap, but if you cover it during winter the chances are slim.
I use empty bulk compost bags from when I used to buy it (make my own now).
As I said up thread, this summer has been crazy for self seeding trees, it's rarely like that.

Lovely!
You can also donate some fruit (when it's matured) to local food banks, or offer it for free on Facebook.
In autumn I see several folks with apple and pear trees asking people to come pick the surplus.

Hazel trees can become gigantic, be aware.
You will be lucky if the squirrels leave you a handful!

Lovely, but it's difficult to get grapes unless it's in a polytunnel.
However, you can use the leaves to make Dolmades, stuffed vine leaves.

Fantastic!
My plum trees are young still, but one has a few fruits already.
I'm envious!

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that!

In future I'll leave the June drops alone then as I'm all for them putting some nutrients back into the ground. As it stands they're all dumped at the bottom of the garden in a bit of old gutter; if you think they'll do OK in the compost I'll chuck them in there as I don't think there's owt about to eat them. The compost bin appears pretty sealed so I suspect that should be OK

I'm certainly going to make an effort to ensure the fruit doesn't go to waste; seems to be a pretty good community round here so what I can't palm off on mates I'll stick on the local FB group or chuck in a bucket and leave out the front.

How do you suggest they're harvested? Probably 75% of the fruit is out of reach; so it's presumably OK to wait until they fall as long as I'm checking regularly so they don't rot..?

My mum tells me that late July is the time to cut back wildflower meadows, so hopefully by then I'll have fixed the family strimmer and can take the as-yet unmown grass back a bit which should help with finding them.

Thanks for the thought re. the Hazel - tbh it's all a bit daunting as it's a pretty mature garden and pretty much all of the trees are at a height I'm not capable of curating; so that's a potential expense further down the line.. plus a possible bone of contention as the Hazel is arguably in the not-actually-mine bit of the garden - which the freeholder seems happy to lay claim to yet not actually maintain. As long as I can use it as my own I'm happy to do basic maintenance, but I'm not dropping hundreds on pruning someone else's trees..

Might be naive about the squirrels (the homestead is nearish large trees and sees a constant stream) although I'm not sure there's anywhere in the vicinity for them to nest so hopefully the garden will be free of the little grey b*stards.

I did wonder about the vines' ability to fruit unaided in our climate; although I liked the idea of planting a hedge along that bit of (open) fence for a bit more privacy and security, so figured the vines could at least offer the former if they were sufficiently prolific.

I do feel privileged to have such a lovely garden (which of course I need to stay on top of as well as making my own) however I suspect your envy is matched by my trepidation

While I love the idea of maintaining and improving it I also need to manage my expectations regarding what's possible, as three months in and I still don't own any furniture or basic kitchenware

 

[Pat "5mph"]

How do you suggest they're harvested? Probably 75% of the fruit is out of reach; so it's presumably OK to wait until they fall as long as I'm checking regularly so they don't rot..?

Ladders!
Get some helpers with ladders or borrow ladders.
There are nifty long fruit picking tools available on the usual sites, but I cannot vouch for their efficiency.
If the fruit is on the ground it could be bruised by the fall.

My mum tells me that late July is the time to cut back wildflower meadows, so hopefully by then I'll have fixed the family strimmer and can take the as-yet unmown grass back a bit which should help with finding them.

You can do the cutting back when the seed pods are ripe, normally late summer, autumn.
Plenty of time still.

I did wonder about the vines' ability to fruit unaided in our climate; although I liked the idea of planting a hedge along that bit of (open) fence for a bit more privacy and security, so figured the vines could at least offer the former if they were sufficiently prolific.

Good idea, but grapevines are not evergreen, they lose their leaves in winter.

While I love the idea of maintaining and improving it I also need to manage my expectations regarding what's possible, as three months in and I still don't own any furniture or basic kitchenware

Get your house stuff second hand till you can afford what you really want.
I still have some of the furniture I bought second hand 17 years ago, when I moved into this flat!
You could invite a local gardening group to come give you advice and a hand too.
I'm pretty sure they would do it for free, and for fruit!

 

[wafter]

Ladders!
Get some helpers with ladders or borrow ladders.
There are nifty long fruit picking tools available on the usual sites, but I cannot vouch for their efficiency.
If the fruit is on the ground it could be bruised by the fall.


You can do the cutting back when the seed pods are ripe, normally late summer, autumn.
Plenty of time still.

Good idea, but grapevines are not evergreen, they lose their leaves in winter.

Get your house stuff second hand till you can afford what you really want.
I still have some of the furniture I bought second hand 17 years ago, when I moved into this flat!
You could invite a local gardening group to come give you advice and a hand too.
I'm pretty sure they would do it for free, and for fruit!

Cheers - bit sketchy with ladders and the ground's not particularly level or even, but I'll give it some thought. A ladder wouldn't be a bad thing to have anyway.. appreciate what you're saying about the damage; one more reason to keep the grass long I suppose!

I'm still not sure what to do with the lawn yet as I'd like to have some people round at some point and knee-high grass probably isn't very conducive to this. I think the idea of cutting a path and maybe a couple of patches while leaving the rest to be cut at the end of the season is the best bet.

I need to acquire another compost bin and some means of burning stuff too; I like the idea of a chiminea but maybe a large dish-shaped thing would be a better idea. I can't really have a proper bonfire as there's no open ground suitable. Besides, if I can find a way to store it what gets lopped off throughout the year can provide a bit of warmth at the end.

Didn't think about the nature of the vines; back to the drawing board then! My mum's trying to sell me on using the catoniasta (sp?) she's grown from cuttings but I want to do a bit more research first. I like the idea of something pointy as I hope eventually to keep at least some of the bikes in a shed so the harder the boundaries are to cross the better. I do have a hawthorn on the other side of the garden (which seems to be growing very well since I removed the elder tree that was growing up through the middle of it) so maybe I can use some cuttings from that, if that's possible.

I'd not thought of inviting in a gardening group - good idea! I'd like to get my over too at some point as it's nice to learn from her since usually we share very little in the way of interests.

Tbh with the interior stuff I'm happy for the most part to sit on my hands until I know what I want and then get that. Living as I have has illustrated to an extent how little I need (at least in the summer when I'm not in much) and I can't be arsed with the logistics of moving multiple lots of furniture about. I want to get it right first time; the problem is I'm still not sure exactly what I want where and there's so much to learn about what's available.

I've kept an eye out for various used things but not a lot has really come up that's worth having, so for some more pressing items (a frying pan and kitchen knives for example) I think I'm just going to have to suck it up and go new.

Having just had another look in the garden I can confirm your suspicions about the hazel - I reckon it's already about 20ft tall. It looks pretty well shaped and once its nuts have been harvested I'll trim the low-hanging twigs off so that there's room to walk underneath. I also need to do this with a big elder, while there's a very tall pine (or whatever the collective name is) with an odd branch jutting out which will give me a lot more room to unobtrusively plant a shed on one side.

Lots of stuff to think about! I doubt much will get done this year beyond making plans and trying to maintain what's there..

 

[Reynard]

A good old-fashioned pruning hook on a pole is good for a) keeping things under control and b) harvesting fruit you can't reach. Have a sniff around your local auction house when they've a general sale on, as you may well find gardening tools there.

Grapes do grow well enough here in the UK. I have a white variety called Phoenix, which crops pretty reliably, albeit it's not a dessert variety. But it makes fabulous grape jelly, which is just *the* thing to have with peanut butter on toast. Grape vines do need regular haircuts if they're to be kept under control, but if you're looking to screen a fence or wall, then yes, they'll do nicely. Do run a length of heavy gauge wire along where you want to train it, so that the tendrils can curl around it. And I'm somewhat further north than you, and if I can get a good crop of grapes (mine are trained around a southwest-facing porch), you shouldn't have an issue

Hazel is great for coppicing, and if you've a lot of straight thumb-thickness growth, you won't ever need to buy garden canes.

Your plums could be anything from cherry plums (small, either round or oval, yellow or red, and earliest variety to ripen), greengages (larger round fruits) to dual-purpose like Victoria, or purely culinary such as a damson. You won't know for sure just yet, as most plums largely won't be ripe till early / mid August, or a bit later than that if they're damsons. if you've good quality dessert fruit, just eat them! They'll be so much nicer than anything you can buy in the shops. If they're damsons, then anyone who makes jam or wine would be grateful for them.

If the mystery berries are round and grow in clusters, they could be rowan - edible, but not raw. They must be cooked or frozen first, albeit the taste is bitter so you can't just eat them. In Poland they put the berries in vodka to make a liqueur called Jarzębiak, and in Scandinavia, they make rowan and apple jelly that's spiced with cinnamon & clove. It's bloody lovely, btw, good on toast and with cold cuts.

Should you have a wealth of fruit that's only suitable for preserves (damsons, rowan, cooking apples), it could also be worth seeing if the local WI branch can use it. It's a shame to let anything go to waste.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

I need to acquire another compost bin

Nay, make your own, much easier for turning it.
Here is an idea of what I'm talking about.
However, I didn't spend any money making mine - I made 3, turn the organic matter from the first bay, to the second, then the third.
I just tied together with string/an old washing line some free pallets from roofing works, lined the "boxes" with netting from an old trampoline.
I get grass cuttings from neighbourgs, raid the recycling bins for carton - Amazon are the best, they are all compostable, add my own weeds and food waste.
If I'm short of grass, I'll collect what the council leaves behind after cutting it.
This season I didn't have to buy any compost

A good old-fashioned pruning hook on a pole

This works surprisingly well on tree branches.
I was given the tool by someone who didn't find it useful.
I was skeptic myself, but itworks.

And I'm somewhat further north than you, and if I can get a good crop of grapes

We don't get grapes up here, unless the vine grows in a polytunnel or greenhouse.
Interesting fact: grapevines like their roots cooler than the vines, so they should be planted outside the poly, with the trunk inside growing from underneath outside, if you know what I mean
In a greenhouse, one can just make a hole in the glass or perspex sheets.

It's a shame to let anything go to waste.

Indeed it is, someone will always be glad for what others do not want/need.
Specially real organic fresh fruit, it's so lovely.

 

[Reynard]

We don't get grapes up here, unless the vine grows in a polytunnel or greenhouse.
Interesting fact: grapevines like their roots cooler than the vines, so they should be planted outside the poly, with the trunk inside growing from underneath outside, if you know what I mean
In a greenhouse, one can just make a hole in the glass or perspex sheets.

That's unsurprising given you are that much further north than me! My vine is outside, but sheltered. I have a nice crop coming on this year, but I do limit the number of bunches - quality over quantity. And I didn't know that about the roots - every day is a school day!

Indeed it is, someone will always be glad for what others do not want/need.
Specially real organic fresh fruit, it's so lovely.

And yet, so many apples get left in the community orchard. The early and mid-season dessert varieties get picked, but there's far fewer takers for the storing / culinary ones.

Having said that, I've been up to my eyeballs in Bigarreau cherries (the yellow ones with the pink blush), but the birds are getting into them now. They're the "wrong" colour for jam (brown jam is so unappetizing!) but great for snacking. I have a friend in the same village who loves cherries, so I've been keeping her in fruit as well.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Having said that, I've been up to my eyeballs in Bigarreau cherries (the yellow ones with the pink blush), but the birds are getting into them now. They're the "wrong" colour for jam (brown jam is so unappetizing!) but great for snacking. I have a friend in the same village who loves cherries, so I've been keeping her in fruit as well.

We have 6 cherry trees in our street, 2 of them are the yellow ones, they taste lovely!
Trouble is all those trees are on a slope, very hard to get a ladder near them without the risk of falling off!
Bloody council, they could have planed them on the flat bits of the estate, where instead they planted uneatable horse chestnuts

And yet, so many apples get left in the community orchard. The early and mid-season dessert varieties get picked, but there's far fewer takers for the storing / culinary ones.

Yes, I think the problem is that people living in an urban setting do not have the facilities to store apples in large quantities.
Home baking is also not popular as it used to be, people rather buy an apple pie than make one from scratch.
I guess it's because spare time is restricted if you work, maybe have children, life is busy with family commitments.

 

[Reynard]

We have 6 cherry trees in our street, 2 of them are the yellow ones, they taste lovely!
Trouble is all those trees are on a slope, very hard to get a ladder near them without the risk of falling off!
Bloody council, they could have planed them on the flat bits of the estate, where instead they planted uneatable horse chestnuts

This is where the aforementioned pruning hook *really* comes in handy!

Yes, I think the problem is that people living in an urban setting do not have the facilities to store apples in large quantities.
Home baking is also not popular as it used to be, people rather buy an apple pie than make one from scratch.
I guess it's because spare time is restricted if you work, maybe have children, life is busy with family commitments.

Yeah, well in that sense I'm lucky, as I have a decent-sized utility room tacked onto the back of my garage, and I can store fruit there. Those cardboard trays that Tesco sell grapes in are ideal, as they are both stackable and sturdy.

Picking wisely, and as the season evolves, both from the community orchard and from various foraging spots, I had apples for nearly nine months. The last ones did get a bit tired, so I made apple & apricot jam - using a can of apricots from the cupboard along with some dried ones. I also made apple & blackberry jam, using berries I'd foraged and froze last summer. Plus I've made crumbles and fritters and jellies (apple & sage is fabulous, btw), and cakes and even just good old apple sauce to go with things like black pudding and sausages.

I'm also lucky that I do have the time to both forage and cook.

 

[annedonnelly]

My mum tells me that late July is the time to cut back wildflower meadows, so hopefully by then I'll have fixed the family strimmer and can take the as-yet unmown grass back a bit which should help with finding them.

I think it's best to keep the grass around the base of the tree short. I think it's codling moth that lurk in the long grass and then attack the fruit.