What were you doing 45 years ago?

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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
I may not remember what I was doing on May 1st, 45 years ago, but ask me again in August, and I will tell you exactly, I was waiting for my Brother to die after he was hit by a car driver as he was playing football after school. (we had lobby for tea, and the mother on a friend came to tell my Mum she had to go to the hospital, as her son was being taken there by an ambulance) That kind of trauma marks a person. As would being abused or raped...
I completely agree with you. Everyone on this forum will have events etched into their memories associated with emotional experiences - i.e. getting married, 1st job, death of child - the list goes on.

The original point of the thread - before the topic got skewed - was how well would you remember events that hadn't been etched like that. Take WR. Here we have a guy thats previously bragged about bedding circa 1000 women in his career - so a bloke with obvious issues. He's had sex with a 15 year old. No-one knows case specifics as yet so we don't know whether he knew this or not. As the girl is a minor it's legally classified as rape (that's my understanding - I could be wrong and am happy to be corrected). Again we don't know case specifics - so I'm assuming one set of circumstances to hightlight the issue. If to his mind she was just one of 1000 it's extremely unlikely he'd remember specific details.

I totally agree with your point that if he'd forced himself on a minor he'd remember perfectly well.
 

swansonj

Guru
IME these days women do this as much as men. I'll keep it generalised so as not to get anyone into bother but I know of one store predominately staffed by women, that has a Code XXX for over the tannoy when a fit gentleman walks through the doors.
fair comment, and no-one is crass enough to believe that there are any attitudes that are completely exclusive to one gender or the other. On the other hand, we have a society where it is a statistical fact that far more men rape women than vice versa.
 
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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
fair comment, and no-one is crass enough to believe that there are any attitudes that are completely exclusive to one gender or the other. On the other hand, we have a society where it is a statistical fact that far more men rape women than vice versa.
Equally fair comment and I'd suspect you're right. I also suspect that'll in a decade or two the disparity will reduce (again I still agree with you in that I think there will be more men then women). A very sad reflection on society!
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
I read it - just meant on his reasoning.
OK... this is hard work. Imagine you were sexually assaulted by someone when you were younger. You didn't report it because you were frightened/thought no one would believe you/thought others would take the side of your abuser. Some years later, you find out that six other people have claimed independently that the same man abused them, in similar ways, during a similar period. Now imagine that the same thing happened to you, and you never get to hear about the other six people he assaulted, because he is protected by anonymity.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
[QUOTE 2435156, member: 45"]It's not just men who are vulnerable. I could give you a long long list of first, second and third-hand allegations of all types of abuse against carers.

But that's a diversion....[/quote]

Well, yes... but point taken.
 
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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
He provided a link...
Forgot to quote you - don't know if you're watching for those alerts rather than the topic as a whole.

I assume he means the publicity of Yewtree brought forward statements from other victims and will argue that these additional statements eventually resulted in a conviction - and on that point I wouldn't argue with him. My argument would be how naming someone helps that process.

The police would, as they must have done in this instance, correlate all statements in an attempt to find evidence for the CPS to make a decision on procescution.

A prominent news article stating that the police have been investigating a series of high profile celebrity offences from the 60's, 70's, 80's and are appealing for anyone else to come forward would have generated the same result. Once convicted SH's name would have been mud (which it is) and the victims would rightly have got justice.

Btw: just to clarify - I don't advocate anonymity forever - just until proven. And I fully realise that a high percentage of those accused will be as guilty as sin. However I also believe that the small percentage who are innocent deserve the same protection as the victims. Both groups will be scarred for life (emotional, physically, both) and I don't think any person here has the right to decide that one groups needs outweigh another.
 
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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
2435188 said:
Nonsense. Reading the name and thinking "be did that to me as well" is the thing that will have had the impact and brought out the corroborating accounts which, when put to the perpetrator, generated the admission of guilt.
Which is why Stuart Hall has been convicted off the back of a Jimmy Saville investigation is it? I'd assume it's because someone read what had happened to another person in the Jimmy Saville investigation and thought "That happened to me with X celebrity".

The generic appeal would have still brought people forward. After the 1st conviction, when names were released, others would have come forward.
 
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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
TBH we could all argue till we're blue in the face but I think we're all skirting around the same issue and none of us believe rape is an acceptable crime. As others have alluded to, the problem is people a) not realising its wrong (I'm thinking of children specifically here) and b) being scared to come forward for fear of the consequences. We should be tackling that as an issue. Ultimately that'll give you the same result without trampling over any victims rights.
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
I really don't know what to a make of it. If someone was abused 45 years ago why wait until now to deal with it?

But having waited for 45 years what do you hope to get out of it?

I'm not sure that 'wait'/'waiting' are appropriate words to use, in this context. After 45 years, most of us, will be an entirely different person, by comparison with what we may have been in our formative years.

I'll give you an analogy . . . . . . .

I first started working in a bar (in Altrincham) when I was 17, as a glass-collector. I was right at the bottom of any hierarchy that may have existed. Like most lads of 17, I was pretty naive about life. I frequently suffered verbal abuse from customers; I was 'effed' & 'jeffed' at, any number of times and fair few comments were worse than that. It sounds really daft now, but at the time, I actually thought that I was 'at fault' for some reason and that I deserved this abuse. I was getting this, from older & 'wiser' people than myself, so they must have been the ones 'in the right'. At 17 and in a new job, I was low on self-esteem and anxious to please both my employers and their customers. The last thing that I was going to do. was to make any waves.

Why the scumbags do this ? Because they could - pure & simple. The word of a callow glass collector, would bear no weight, by comparison of an esteemed customer. Oh yes, not once have I experienced this kind of thing from a female customer - the gobshites were always men.

After a while, I developed strategies to deal with the 'grief' that I was receiving; I have to say, that this 'treatment' was given to most of the new and young staff. Many years on, and I look back and wonder why I ever put up with that kind of stuff - I'd deal with it so much better now - having the benefit of decades of life experience. At that time, I 'accepted' it, 'cos I just thought that it was 'part & parcel' of the job.

Of course, the scumbags that upset me years ago, wouldn't try to do the same to me now; 'cos as we get older, we give out different 'vibes'; they'd just know that it wouldn't work - and that I'm too old to put up with such sh1te. I'm much better prepared (mentally & physically), to deal with a 'difficult' situation.

In the same way, I can appreciate why rape victims don't come forward; who is going to believe the word of a teenager, when set against that of a plausible male, who will have more life experience ?

IMO, it isn't a matter of rape victims 'waiting' to come forward; but rather, being mentally prepared to cope with the trauma & stress that a trial would inevitably bring.
 
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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
2435238 said:
We could. Alternatively we could look at the outcome of the Stuart Hall case and draw the conclusions that justice can be done after a long period of time and that these enquiries are therfore effective and worthwhile.
No alternatively about justice having been done in the Stuart Hall case. I agree with you. I just think the same result could have been achieved without naming names at the enquiry stage. We'll have to agree to differ on that point.
 
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