@DC, your thoughtful post has made me think that I've horribly misunderstood you in "that" thread, where it got a bit heated.
I will just say I'm not aware of anyone suggesting that pedestrians should be allowed to blindly wander into the road; rather, cars should generally stop to let pedestrians cross without having to be forced to.
Also, in the UK at least, we don't really have paths that are designated cyclists only (apart from cycle lanes on roads, and a few mtb trails). Where we have shared use paths, just because the council has slapped a bit of paint down doesn't really stop it being a pedestrian pavement, and through parks pedestrians always have priority - we don't want to restrict pedestrian's freedom to wander about without worrying about being run down.
So I don't agree with jaywalking laws, but also think pedestrians have a responsibility to cross safely, and sometimes that will mean a dedicated crossing. Motorists ought to stop and let pedestrians cross anywhere, if it's safe to do that.
Thanks for that, and I apologise for our previous altercations.
Ben,
Thank you and you are welcome. I've always thought that usually with most people there is some sort of middle ground that would allow them to if not be friends at least to be civil to each other. And to admit that the other has a valid argument. I fully agree with that, i.e. cars should stop to allow pedestrians to cross without being forced to do so, but again sadly I think that we know the truth is that many motorists don't want to be "bothered" by pedestrians or cyclists. They just want to drive as fast as possible on "their roads."
I can understand that, at times it is kind of hard to remember that we do have something of a shared history/common roots. Sadly, I have seen pedestrians start walking up that path that I included the picture to. I have also encountered pedestrians/joggers in some of the bike lanes that I use. Again, when I see them if doing so doesn't force me out into traffic or cause another cyclist who may also be traveling in my direction to collide with me I will slow down and give them space. Even though they really shouldn't be in the on road bike lane.
This past Saturday night (after I had taken that picture) I had to laugh. I was nearing the end of my bike ride as I was riding along the
North Bay Trail, which is part of the City Trails multi-use recreational trail system. I encountered a couple who were out walking their dogs. The man kind of yells at me "bike don't belong on the effen sidewalk, they belong on the road." The irony is that I had slowed way down before we got close to each other, and I've lost count of the number of times that I've had some motorist yell at me to "get on the effen sidewalk."
It'd be nice if they would make up their minds where they wanted us to ride. As he's saying that and I am slowly going past them, I'm thinking to myself "I hope you remember that the next time you're out on the road and have a cyclist in front of you."
Also as I've said, when I'm riding through the parks that I ride through on my ride, of which I'd say there is at least 4 if not maybe 5 depending on how you count one. They are Coffee Pot Park at the very end of my ride, North Shore Park, Vinoy Park (these two are connected to each other), DeMen's Landing Park, and Albert Whitted Park. DeMen's has a road that runs through it as well as shared use paths. I stay on the road in that one and pick it up twice once going to the Coast Guard Unit and again on my way back home. Albert Whitted I only pick up on my way back home as well. The same with the Vinoy, North Short and Coffee Pot parks.
When I'm riding through them when I encounter people walking, particularly when they have small(sih) children and dogs I always slow down, yet sadly I see way too many cyclists who are hammering through the parks as if they're running their own personal Tour or something. Likewise sadly I see way too many cyclists who are out riding "Ninja" style. As well as those who are riding against the flow of traffic.
Usually when I do see them I'll politely let them know that they need lights as well as they need to ride with the flow of traffic. I'll also if I've seen the same people too many times doing so, I'll stop and call the non-emergency number for my local police and report them. It took my doing so a few times before one gal got the message that she needed to ride with the flow of traffic not against it.
As I know that sadly in this country that too many motorists have a negative image of cyclists And I just want to do what I can to help improve it.
In theory I agree with you that there shouldn't be jaywalking laws, but sadly given that there are those pedestrians who do attempt to cross when/where it isn't safe they can be a good thing. It would be nice if we all could live in a world where the slowest, most vulnerable road users could use the road without fear of being hit be it by a car, or a cyclist, or a skater. But sadly that isn't always the case. And I agree that motorists should stop to allow pedestrians to cross, but should do so when it is safe to do so. Which sadly means that on a road like the one that I live on at intersections with lights to control said traffic.
Also again as I said earlier in this thread the gal that had hit the handlebars on my bike had done so while we passed each other. It wasn't a head-on collision. Which I am sorry that I hadn't made clearer when I initially told you all about it. Also in regards to that incident, I don't know how it is over there, but over here if a person refuses to obey a legal order by a LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) they can be subject to arrest. So that the officer who was stationed at the street that I road down let me know by not interfering with where I was going could be interrupted as a legal order from a LEO.
Because as I had said had he told me that I couldn't go that way I would have found another route to get me where I wanted to go. That's not to say that the police over here always issue legal orders or sadly fully know the very laws that they are suppose to be enforcing. As about this time last year I had a LEO get on his PA system and order me to ride further to the right of where I was riding or to get on the sidewalk. This was on a road with a lane that is too narrow for a car and bicycle traveling in the same direction to safely pass each other.
Likewise in the state of Ohio we had a fairly famous case known as
Trotwood v Selz in which a female officer stopped and ticketed a cyclist for riding his bike up a hill and "impeding" traffic while doing so. Sadly Mr. Selz lost when he initially went to court to fight the ticket, but won on appeals.
Sadly even after the LEO had had the law explained to her, she still indicated that she would stop cyclists if she saw them riding in the manner that Mr. Selz was riding in. The irony in this case is that had the officer cited Mr. Selz for failing to ride as far to the right as practicable he probably wouldn't have won on appeal. But because he was ticketed for impeding traffic he was able to win on appeal.
As it was shown and the city stipulated that he was traveling at a speed that was reasonable for a bicycle, and that bicycles are a part of traffic. And ironically (if I'm remembering things correctly) it was the judge or one "his" clerks that had found a case in Georgia in which the operator of a piece of farm equipment on the public roads was likewise found not to be impeding traffic when it was traveling as fast as it reasonably could.
