Wheel build advice

[geekinaseat]

Hi All,

I'm in the process of finalising the spec for a new Condor Acciaio This is going to be a bit of a do it all "forever" bike and therefore has to be durable enough for the commute, comfortable enough for long rides on the weekend (on London's less than perfect roads) and fast enough to put a smile on my face.

It's going to be in dark red with Campag Chorus groupset with a silver seatpost, stem and handlebars (Richey Classic or a Thompson/Hope mix), still racey but with a nod to the traditional.

I've been speaking to a colleague who is a bit of a bike nut and he suggested the idea of some handbuilt wheels to fit the classic look and provide better performance at the same time. He suggested the following:

Hope Mono RS 24f 28r
Stans NoTubes ZTR Alpha 340 700c
DT Swiss Competition spokes (silver)
@ £484 (including the same tyres and tubes as below)


I sent this to Condor and they came up with their own suggestion:
Hope Pro3 28f 28r
Abrosio Excellight rims
Sapim Laser Spokes (Silver) - 2 cross
Vittoria Open Corsa SR
Secialized Turbos
@£560

I have absolutely no clue about what makes a good wheel (round and not made of spaghetti? Pumped up tyres a bonus?) and was wondering if anybody could shed any light on the two builds and highlight any differences or share any experiences you have had with them?

The cost difference between the two doesn't really figure in the total cost of the bike so really I'm looking for:
Durability/Strength
Servicability
Weight
Other considerations - will I be limited in tyre choice etc
In keeping with the classic look -I am assuming the hubs, spokes and rims are all silver so this might be a moot point)

Thanks All

 

[Spoked Wheels]

What is your weight?

What you are asking is quite difficult to spec? Durable for the commute and yet fast and light. Whatever wheelset you end up with my guess is that they will not be strong enough for the commute if they are also very light.

I'm not going to recommend Hope hubs cause I find them too noisy, that is just a personal view. You on the other hand might even like the noise.

Not knowing your weight and knowing little of the type of riding I can't say if your friend's suggestion is correct but assuming your friend is a little bit right and you are light enough for 28 Competition spokes then Condor's suggestion I feel is wrong, based on the rear wheel and Sapim Laser spokes and the Ambrosio Excellight rims. Two cross pattern will depend on your type of riding and how powerful rider you are but to be honest with you Condor's suggestion of the rear wheel seems wrong to me. It seems odd to mix Ambrosio Excellight rims with Sapim Laser spokes for rear wheel, add to that only 28 spokes and 2 x, unless you weight 45 kgs

The front wheel is more or less consistent with your friend's, more spokes but lighter spokes.

 

[geekinaseat]

This has just become ridiculously (laughably?) appropriate considering http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/wheels-stolen.161026/#post-3191385

That's just luck for you!

I'm 88kgs and pretty tough on the bike, although I'm more of an all day pootler than a hard club rider. I accept there is a trade off but I think what I am expecting (rightly or wrongly and certainly only if you do it right) is that you can at least match one aspect (e.g. strength) and improve on another (e.g. weight) when going custom compared to the equivalent priced factory wheel? And also get the look you want in the process.

At this point I don't even understand how the components relate to each other in terms of quality/weight/strength etc so your post is really useful thanks.
So Sapim Laser are lighter, weaker spokes than DT Swiss Competition. How do the rims compare with each other?

How do lacing patterns affect the wheel? I've read that radial spokes are generally a bad idea considering the forces they place on the flange of the hub but I don't know the difference between a 2x or 3x pattern.

I don't think I've ever considered noise as a factor... come to think of it I do notice other bikes with a "clicky" freewheel which sometime I think is kinda cool (is that weird?)

Durability is most important (well enough durability appropriate to a 8 mile each way commute each way on London roads and 50 odd milers on the weekend)
Weight, well the wheels that I have just had stolen are Giant SR-2's so any improvement on that would be great.

Well ANY wheels would be an improvement right now!!!!!!!!

 

[fossyant]

Forget fancy wheels if commuting. You will eat through rims in 18 months

 

[e-rider]

I have some Hope Pro3 hubs on Mavic CXP33 rims and DT Swiss competition spokes - can't fault any of those components. The CXP33 rims are really good, a large step up from Open Pro rims (and a world away from CXP22!).

Only thing I'd say is that 24/28 or even 28/28 are only suitable for lightweight riders and good smooth roads. The weight and aero penalty of 32 or even 36 spokes is minimal especially on a build liek you plan.

You wont break DT swiss competiton spokes - very strong indeed, probably one of the strongeston the market.

 

[e-rider]

only problem is, you will build the bike of your dreams only for it to get stolen within a few months and sold for £100 by a crack addict!

 

[geekinaseat]

Oh so true right now...

I certainly won't be locking it up outside, fortunately one of my work places have secure parking so in there it will go, as for the other office.. well I'm just going to have to ask if I can bring it in with me!

 

[Spoked Wheels]

This has just become ridiculously (laughably?) appropriate considering http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/wheels-stolen.161026/#post-3191385

That's just luck for you!

I'm 88kgs and pretty tough on the bike, although I'm more of an all day pootler than a hard club rider. I accept there is a trade off but I think what I am expecting (rightly or wrongly and certainly only if you do it right) is that you can at least match one aspect (e.g. strength) and improve on another (e.g. weight) when going custom compared to the equivalent priced factory wheel? And also get the look you want in the process.

At this point I don't even understand how the components relate to each other in terms of quality/weight/strength etc so your post is really useful thanks.
So Sapim Laser are lighter, weaker spokes than DT Swiss Competition. How do the rims compare with each other?

How do lacing patterns affect the wheel? I've read that radial spokes are generally a bad idea considering the forces they place on the flange of the hub but I don't know the difference between a 2x or 3x pattern.

I don't think I've ever considered noise as a factor... come to think of it I do notice other bikes with a "clicky" freewheel which sometime I think is kinda cool (is that weird?)

Durability is most important (well enough durability appropriate to a 8 mile each way commute each way on London roads and 50 odd milers on the weekend)
Weight, well the wheels that I have just had stolen are Giant SR-2's so any improvement on that would be great.

Well ANY wheels would be an improvement right now!!!!!!!!

Definitely bad luck.

The Ambrosio Excellight rims is not really a rim for commuting, the Ambrosio Evolution is far more capable for commuting. At 88kg Condor have to be mad to suggest the rear wheel they suggested. I'd think minimum 32 spokes and either Sapim Race or DT Swiss Competition spokes. The 2 x pattern doesn't make sense on a rear wheel, You only need to understand than 3 x pattern gives you more strength for virtually no weight penalty, the difference is so small that you shouldn't need to worry about it. Radial pattern it is indeed more demanding on the hub's flange so one way around is to use less spokes, 24 spokes or 28 but with the less tension. The front wheel doesn't carry much weight so you don't need as many spokes as in the rear wheel.

 

[geekinaseat]

So the first build is better for me in most respects but i should look at a higher spoke count possibly 28f/32r with a 3x pattern on the back?

 

[Spoked Wheels]

So the first build is better for me in most respects but i should look at a higher spoke count possibly 28f/32r with a 3x pattern on the back?

My only doubt would be your riding style and terrain for your front wheel. You could get away with 24 race or competition spokes but if you ride hard and likely to see potholes then go for 28.

Good luck.

 

[geekinaseat]

So I've been busy putting in a lot of miles for the Surrey100 over the last couple of weeks but got the chance to pop into Condor and chatted about the wheel build. The new build is:

Campag Centaur Hubs 36T front & rear
Ambrosio Excellence Rims (Silver)
DT Swiss Competition spokes (silver)

Does anything stand out here? The discussion was around something suitable for commuting but by no means a lead weight on a sunday and looks fitting in with the rest of the bike which is going to be a bit retro. The wheelbuild is the last thing preventing me from pulling the trigger on the order so I guess I just need a little confidence from knowledgeable souls like yourselves that it will work for my purposes!

 

[Spoked Wheels]

This is very personal view but Condor got it so wrong the first time round that I would have never given them a second chance. As far I'm concerned their first wheel suggestion could only be done by somebody that doesn't understand / know about bicycle wheels or you didn't tell them about your weight and riding style, in which case the should have asked the relevant questions.

 

[geekinaseat]

Yeah I understand where you are coming from, they never asked about my weight but I had met the bike builder - not the wheelbuilder though. When Io said to him my concern was that I was quite heavy and thought the wheels might not stand up to the commute he was a little surprised and said he didn't think I looked like I weighed that much so I must look lighter than I am!

I have to be honest I am a little frustrated with the changing of components for no apparent reason, for example I couldn't obtain an explanation as to why the hope hubs had been dropped and campag ones substituted, it seems a little arbitrary and not specified for a particular purpose. With every other aspect of the bike I'm happy with the build but then I understand the other components better, wheels are a mystery to me- but I'm learning.

I think I like the current spec, it makes more sense (apart from the hubs) from a high level, a tougher rim, higher spoke count, all components matching the look I want to achieve. But like I say I don't know the components like someone who works with them daily so I have to have a level of trust that they know what they are talking about.... I'm also hoping they wont turn out too heavy now!