Why Primary?

[snailracer]

To elaborate-

• When you're in secondary, vehicles are more likely to try to 'stay' in your lane when they pass, so you're more vulnerable to close passes. In primary, they've got to cross the line anyway and so they're more likely to give you room.
• In primary, you'll stop a proportion of vehicles from trying to pass you at all. Personal safety when you're on your bike is as much about controlling the space around you as anything else.
• As has been said, if a driver is going to pass you close he can and will often do this wherever you are in your lane.
• If you're in primary, you've got a safety zone when he does this.
• In primary, you're easier to see.
• In primary, (in my experience) you generally get more respect as you are seen to know what you're doing).

I get a lot more incidents being cut up when I'm over on the left than I do stroppy drivers being annoyed when I'm in primary.

One more to add to your list, when you are in primary, motorists often have to slow down and wait for a passing opportunity. This means they pass you at a lower speed, and you can easily hear their engines revving up as they overtake which gives you an idea of where they are.
If more cyclists rode in primary more often, motorists would get used to it and not get annoyed.

 

[jimboalee]

What position were you in when the car overtook you?

I don't think it would have mattered a flying f**k whereabouts I was riding when he overtook me. The guy wanted me off. He changed his speed and direction to get his result.
I took his precious roadspace when approaching the constriction.

Anyway, what makes you think YOU are so high and mighty that you DEMAND a response from me?

And as learning what "Secondary" and "Primary" are, I'll tell you the answer.
They are one man's interpretation of road positioning for vehicular transport.

Before that damned book was published, I and thousands of others did quite nicely with "Nearside" and "Dominant". I think these are still used in the motorbike world. What makes pedal cycles different? I'll tell you. "One man's aim to be 'Lord almighty' of cycling roadcraft."


The local school near where I live have 'bicycle road skills' lessons.
When I take a stroll from Land Rover, Lode Lane to the local shops, I can hear the instructors shouting down Rodney Road "Keep near the curb!".

I suppose that's to stop the kids being 'squished'.....

 

[BentMikey]

One more to add to your list, when you are in primary, motorists often have to slow down and wait for a passing opportunity. This means they pass you at a lower speed, and you can easily hear their engines revving up as they overtake which gives you an idea of where they are.
If more cyclists rode in primary more often, motorists would get used to it and not get annoyed.

More looking mate, not listening.

 

[dondare]

One more to add to your list, when you are in primary, motorists often have to slow down and wait for a passing opportunity. This means they pass you at a lower speed, and you can easily hear their engines revving up as they overtake which gives you an idea of where they are.
If more cyclists rode in primary more often, motorists would get used to it and not get annoyed.

I don't think that this is true. If cyclists rode in primary more often then they'd piss motorists off more often. As I understand Franklin, secondary is the default position.

More looking mate, not listening.

Engine pitch is a very good clue, you can't be looking behind you all the time.

 

[AnotherEye]

If more cyclists rode in primary more often, motorists would get used to it and not get annoyed.

I think so too. At least they'll get used to it regardless of whether they get annoyed!
I guess I'm writing as a 'trendy duffer', I have 40 years cycling behind me but I'm going to defend the author of 'the book', John Franklin (which I do recomend to novice cyclists):
I've not read cyclecraft but his new book is published by the Institute of Advanced Motorists which gives it some credence with the driving fraternity. I'd like all road users to read it so that motorists understand why confident cyclists position themselves as they do.
p38: "... ride where you can best be seen, where you deter or prevent others from putting you at risk, and where control of your cycle is as easy as possible.
You should ride in the centre of the leftmost traffic lane (primary position) when ... you need to emphasise your presence, .... or when you need to deter following drivers from overtaking you because it is not safe to do so.
... When it is safe for other drivers to pass you ... do not ride slavishly close to the curb where other drivers may not easily notice you. ... Never ride closer than 0.5m to the road edge as this will leave you with insufficient escape room in an emergency.
Personally I think that 0.5m is too close to the curb.
p72: Cycle Lanes: ".... motorists often pass cyclists closer and faster where there is a cycle lane than where there isn't .... Position yourself as if the lane is not there ...".
At the end of the day; no book can anticipate the infinite possibilities that we will encounter.

 

[BentMikey]

Engine pitch is a very good clue, you can't be looking behind you all the time.

To "give you an idea of where they are"? Hearing is a rather poor way to find out where a vehicle is.

 

[jimboalee]

Please correct my assumption if I'm wrong then, but from your response I'm assuming that you were back in secondary.


That's not how it is. You asked what we could learn from your incident.

I responded to your question by asking another, to explore any learning points.

If we link this back to the OP and discussion about primary/secondary, the argument for being further out in the road at times like this is that you've got more escape room on the left.

So, to answer your question about what we can learn, perhaps if you'd had more room on your left you wouldn't have ended up hitting the kerb and the floor.

This might seem like a criticism of your riding, but it's not. You have invited the discussion about learning from your incident and this is it.

It's just language Jim. It doesn't matter what it's called as long as we all understand each other.


I'd suggest that it's more likely poor teaching.

When I teach my boys to cycle I teach them about maximizing control of the space around them on the road.

BTW, I often used to stroll to the same shops in my lunch break.

I was there, I heard the B**t**d approach, come level and then I saw him swerve left to make me swerve.
If I'd be riding dominantly in the middle of the cariageway, would he a/ nudged my rear tyre, or b/ waited until I got to the nearside to do his dastardly deed?

What is a cyclist supposed to do ( question to all, not User )? After exercising a bit of dominance ( Franklin : riding in Primary ) through a constriced zone, keep a special eye open for what the next passing car will do and be ready to apply the brakes if it swerves?

By the time I'd finished typing this, me thinks YES. That's what we SHOULD do. Always be alert and second guess the buggers.

 

[AnotherEye]

What is a cyclist supposed to do

Sometimes you can do all the right things and still get some a55ole putting you in danger. If you get the chance; get his number and call the police.

 

[dondare]

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with "primary" and "secondary". The terms "nearside" and "dominant" make more sense as they are more descriptive and don't imply that one is better than the other.

 

[snailracer]

More looking mate, not listening.

I agree, I added it to the list for those who find it reassuring to hear the traffic. Me, I have a helmet mirror . Some vehicles can't be heard.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Weigh up the risks.

Primary - closer to the cars.
Secondary - further from the cars.

Err no. Primary the cars might see you and react; secondary they pass close.

 

[GFamily]

To elaborate-

• When you're in secondary, vehicles are more likely to try to 'stay' in your lane when they pass, so you're more vulnerable to close passes. In primary, they've got to cross the line anyway and so they're more likely to give you room.

I think there is evidence that this is not the case. drivers pass closer to cyclists the further out they are.

• In primary, you'll stop a proportion of vehicles from trying to pass you at all. Personal safety when you're on your bike is as much about controlling the space around you as anything else.

True - but are the drivers that thereby don't pass you likely to be the same ones that put you at risk? I doubt it!

• As has been said, if a driver is going to pass you close he can and will often do this wherever you are in your lane.
• If you're in primary, you've got a safety zone when he does this.

True

• In primary, you're easier to see.

Possibly true, but if they only see you at the last second you're dead; whereas in secondary, if they only see you at the last second, they have more chance of swerving to avoid you.

• In primary, (in my experience) you generally get more respect as you are seen to know what you're doing).

I think what you are justified in saying say is
In primary, (in my wishful thinking) you generally get more respect as you are seen to know what you're doing).

But in fact you don't know anything about others 'opinion' of you.

• 
  I get a lot more incidents being cut up when I'm over on the left than I do stroppy drivers being annoyed when I'm in primary.

But this is comparing apples and umm, other non appley things; you do not know the opinion of the drivers behind you, so how can you claim to give a quantitative comparison between them

 

[summerdays]

Possibly true, but if they only see you at the last second you're dead; whereas in secondary, if they only see you at the last second, they have more chance of swerving to avoid you.

But the situation of not being seen until the last second, is far less likely to occur in primary, and you have a lot more space to swerve into yourself. By no means am I suggesting that you should cycle in primary all of the time - but at times it is useful to allow others to see you earlier, and to try and prevent stupid manoeuvres by motorists. It won't stop everything which is why you continue to be alert and aware of what is going on around you.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I think there is evidence that this is not the case. drivers pass closer to cyclists the further out they are.

GF,

There's no point in turning this into a general C&Pfest argument and counter argument but I would take particular issue with the comment above. As you partially identify further down drivers who threaten you in primary are not the same ones as pose a threat if you're riding close in. The person threatening in primary may well be trying to teach you a lesson but those close passing if you're by the kerb never even saw you.

 

[blockend]

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with "primary" and "secondary". The terms "nearside" and "dominant" make more sense as they are more descriptive and don't imply that one is better than the other.

Completely agree. They've become synonymous with alpha male and wimp, the use of the term gutter regularly arises and the thing turns into a cyclist vs cyclist scrap.

Take a different tack when you feel harrassed, don't speed up and pretend to be traffic, slow down. I max out about 20mph on a bike, which is about a third slower than the most law abiding, 1000cc citizen and much, much less than the average driver. There's no way I'll ever win the horsepower battle and will turn into a blob of grease trying.

If we're serious about taking our place on the road it'll be doing human speeds in whatever lane position we adopt and making drivers accommodate us. Sprinting triggers a competitive response in some drivers and they'll move heaven and earth to get past. Primary works if there's a real chance of being squeezed from behind or pulled out on from in front but a lot of the time it's riders convincing themselves they can keep up with cars. Maybe they can if they bust a gut but being Chris Hoy is not the future of road cycling. Think Miss Marple and relax.