Will lights be limited?

[magnatom]

The quest for more powerful lights for commuting on bikes continues apace. I've noticed recently that 900 lumen (claimed) lights are becoming available at sub £100 prices. Great. However, where does this and where should this end? 1200 lumen? 1500 lumen? 2000 lumen?

Technology is sure to continue advancing and light outputs are sure to increase (of course there will be a theoretical limit). There must come a point where more light is not good, i.e. dazzling, distraction, etc. Will this need legislation in the future? What do you think?

 

[upsidedown]

Judging by some of the lights i saw last winter on Range Rovers and Audis we've a way to go yet. Some of them were ridiculously bright.

I think it's more a question of where they're shining than how bright they are. My Ay-Ups are perfect for the unlit rural part of my ride, but not great in the sodium-lit city part.
Quite a timely question though as i've been pondering a very bright Dinotte type back light for this winter.

 

[mark barker]

Isn't there already legislation in place? According to the CTC website all lights should meet BS6102/3 and I'd be surprised if there isn't a mention of max power in there somewhere...

 

[summerdays]

How bright is a car light in lumen's?

I think its good that they are continuing to develop lights but I do think they need to concentrate on other things rather than just brightness.

 

[magnatom]

Isn't there already legislation in place? According to the CTC website all lights should meet BS6102/3 and I'd be surprised if there isn't a mention of max power in there somewhere...

I don't think there is, but I could be wrong....

 

[summerdays]

Isn't there already legislation in place? According to the CTC website all lights should meet BS6102/3 and I'd be surprised if there isn't a mention of max power in there somewhere...

Isn't it that one set of lights should meet that standard but that you may have additional lights which don't have to meet the standard. And most lights are tested to those standards anyway.

 

[DrSquirrel]

Lumen isn't a great measure for lights...

And you can already get 10,000 Lumen LEDs, though its 20 LED dies in one package, but its just as single LED as a P7 is (having 4).

You will notice a lot of modders are often talking about beam patterns, there is no point carrying on with brightness if half of that is pointing into the air - so choosing a good beam pattern might get just as good of real term usage as double the power.

If you haven't already check out mtbr in the DIY lighting section, and candlepower forums - by far the best for cycle lighting.


And you talk about limits - if its per light head (not that there is a limit) - what stops you having more than one?

 

[GrasB]

yeah, one set of lights must be up to the relevant british standard or equivalent, once you have one set that anything else goes.

My problem with the really bright lights isn't their lumen count, it's the fact that they are wasting way to much of those lumen in areas that there is no need for them to be used which is a real irritation to other road users. Then there are people who seem to go out with these lights & the sole intention of robbing all approaching road users of their night vision.

 

[sunnyjim]

Agreed.
Now that LED lights are increasingly common on motorised vehicles and batteries are so good, it would make sense to have a single standard covering all road users. BS6102 is from a pre-LED era, when the idea of bicycles having too bright lights wasn't considered.

The problem isn't total light, where bikes can easily match the 400+lm from a car headlamp but intensity in some directions, where cars are regulated but not bikes. Being dazzled by cyclists is likely to become more of a problem as prices fall, so some change to regulations will probably happen eventually. Probably accompanied by some general aggro between cyclists & motorists.

Thinking ahead to winter, I've got a combined LED stop/tail (1W +4W ~95mm dia) and set of daylight running lamps (2*1W) sold for trailers & kit & modified cars. They are as bright as car lamps because they *are* car lamps- E marked & everything!

Economies of scale would suggest that the days of cycle-specific lamps are numbered, and on the basis of lighting at least, it could soon be difficult to to distinguish between pedal & motor powered things at night.

 

[DrSquirrel]

Agreed.
Now that LED lights are increasingly common on motorised vehicles and batteries are so good, it would make sense to have a single standard covering all road users. BS6102 is from a pre-LED era, when the idea of bicycles having too bright lights wasn't considered.

The problem isn't total light, where bikes can easily match the 400+lm from a car headlamp but intensity in some directions, where cars are regulated but not bikes. Being dazzled by cyclists is likely to become more of a problem as prices fall, so some change to regulations will probably happen eventually. Probably accompanied by some general aggro between cyclists & motorists.

Thinking ahead to winter, I've got a combined LED stop/tail (1W +4W ~95mm dia) and set of daylight running lamps (2*1W) sold for trailers & kit & modified cars. They are as bright as car lamps because they *are* car lamps- E marked & everything!

Economies of scale would suggest that the days of cycle-specific lamps are numbered, and on the basis of lighting at least, it could soon be difficult to to distinguish between pedal & motor powered things at night.

I'd have more respect for any kind of limit if the majority of cars dipped their lights, which is a bigger problem imo. It took a (mini) strobe for me to balance that the other way.

Most of peoples problem with bike lights is the small point of light it emits from... some people look at little LEDs (10cd ones) and think they are too bright too... so you can't win that easily.

Any legislation will come in too slow, will up the cost of lights, hamper very good home made systems and be out of date way too fast. And any regulation will be written up by people that has no realistic view of what it will mean to us, and not unlikely being made up of "tax dodging cyclist" haters.



I've seen people with take the piss lights on cars, fog lights, "driving" lamps, other additional crap, neons etc etc - the only reason regulation will come in for cyclists is due to the "hate" for cyclists.

 

[sunnyjim]

I'd have more respect for any kind of limit if the majority of cars dipped their lights, which is a bigger problem imo. It took a (mini) strobe for me to balance that the other way.

Most of peoples problem with bike lights is the small point of light it emits from... some people look at little LEDs (10cd ones) and think they are too bright too... so you can't win that easily.

Any legislation will come in too slow, will up the cost of lights, hamper very good home made systems and be out of date way too fast. And any regulation will be written up by people that has no realistic view of what it will mean to us, and not unlikely being made up of "tax dodging cyclist" haters.



I've seen people with take the piss lights on cars, fog lights, "driving" lamps, other additional crap, neons etc etc - the only reason regulation will come in for cyclists is due to the "hate" for cyclists.

I’m sure I’ve come across something like this before:

• The fact that badly behaved motorists are the greatest problem can be justification for our ocassional misdemeanors.
• Cyclists expect others to obey a set of rules, but not all are willing to accept that the same rules must apply to us as well.
• There is deep –and entirely justified – suspision that any initiative to ‘improve the lot of cyclists’ will either be hijacked or incompetently implemented.
• There is an impression –entirely justified- that even if road authorities genuinely have their best interests at heart, cyclists won’t be able to agree among themselves what they actually want.

I suspect you’re right, DrS.



Anyway, there doesn’t seem to be a law preventing me fitting lights on a cycle which would be road legal on a car or motorbike. I can live on the edge by flaunting the law & not having any BS6012 lights.

 

[DrSquirrel]

I'm not trying to be a "they can do it, so we can too",

I am after all comparing drivers not dipping like they should, vs using lights on a bike which are deemed perfectly legal (saying that, my front isnt BS marked, as below...)

My point is - they cannot enforce it on cars very well so what is even the point of them doing it to bikes if anything, cyclists will be hated on by the majority again because we are not conforming, just like we all jump red lights and of course motorists don't do that...

I do ride with a front light that doesn't conform, but I know it perfectly exceeds the regulation specs. Just like my car number plate isn't BS marked but it conforms perfectly - unlike these muppets with stupid fonts - I can live with dodgy spacing, but the fonts are stupid, or the non E marked rear lights that are so tinted they look pink.

I just reckon they should go after this because its the majority - rather than the minority because the majority hates us (hate as a bad word, but you get the idea). Oh and cyclists WITHOUT lights, rather than the ones with

 

[Trumpettom001]

Type "1600 lumens" into eBay - and there you have an idea of the lights (using two of them of course!!) I'll be using for my off-road commute.. However, I only ever ride on road on street lit roads, so for that I'll have my mini LED Lights.

I'm not worried about blinding other road users myself, it's a shame that people just don't seem to think a little bit ahead...

 

[XmisterIS]

IMHO, making lights brighter and brighter doesn't make it any easier for us to see where we're going!

I say that because as a car driver, biker and cyclist, I find that by comparison to car/motorbike headlights, bike lights produce a beam that is far too much like a spotlight - so you get to see a small bit of road lit up incredibly brightly, while the rest of the road is in darkness. Car headlights, however, cast their light over a broad area, which is much better for seeing where you're going!

So I'd be interested in a very bright bike light only if it cast its beam as broadly as a car or motorbike headlamp.

 

[DrSquirrel]

IMHO, making lights brighter and brighter doesn't make it any easier for us to see where we're going!

I say that because as a car driver, biker and cyclist, I find that by comparison to car/motorbike headlights, bike lights produce a beam that is far too much like a spotlight - so you get to see a small bit of road lit up incredibly brightly, while the rest of the road is in darkness. Car headlights, however, cast their light over a broad area, which is much better for seeing where you're going!

So I'd be interested in a very bright bike light only if it cast its beam as broadly as a car or motorbike headlamp.

It's only a spot light if you pick a bike(bicycle) light that has a reflector like that...