Woman cyclist killed in Victoria (tipper truck)

[theclaud]

That's all well and good till they go off-road and get bent, then they'll be sticking out with possible sharp edges

Er... if I understand correctly it's a piece of correx board that is being used to highlight a key danger area of the vehicle. It's attached to sideguards which are presumably of conventional construction, but are positioned lower. They are trialling the new vehicles - as Adrian says, it's astonishing that such small improvements meet with such bloody-minded resistance.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Those mobile cranes that they use to erect the metal cranes that erect the blocks of boxes that investors want to pay for don't have high clearances and they also have long wheelbases, from what I remember. How comes they don't get grounded on every construction site in London? Because they're expensive, the constructors set up flat access for quick in and out installation. It can be done - it has been done - flat surfaces, obstacle free approaches. If one of those can get on and off a construction site, so can a lower lorry.

 

[classic33]

Those mobile cranes that they use to erect the metal cranes that erect the blocks of boxes that investors want to pay for don't have high clearances and they also have long wheelbases, from what I remember. How comes they don't get grounded on every construction site in London? Because they're expensive, the constructors set up flat access for quick in and out installation. It can be done - it has been done - flat surfaces, obstacle free approaches. If one of those can get on and off a construction site, so can a lower lorry.

They also have low cabs with very limited sideways visibility. Often have a police escort due to poor driver visibilty.
All down to the way they're constructed.

 

[Shaun]

That's all well and good till they go off-road and get bent, then they'll be sticking out with possible sharp edges

It looks to me to be just a promotional board (as is the skip on the back) - the truck appears to be indoors, perhaps at an exhibition / event to promote CLOCS? Correct me though if anyone has seen the vehicles out in public with this livery.

Interesting video on their homepage:

 

[theclaud]

It looks to me to be just a promotional board (as is the skip on the back) - the truck appears to be indoors, perhaps at an exhibition / event to promote CLOCS?

Is it insubordination if I claim a TMN from the boss?

 

[subaqua]

Those mobile cranes that they use to erect the metal cranes that erect the blocks of boxes that investors want to pay for don't have high clearances and they also have long wheelbases, from what I remember. How comes they don't get grounded on every construction site in London? Because they're expensive, the constructors set up flat access for quick in and out installation. It can be done - it has been done - flat surfaces, obstacle free approaches. If one of those can get on and off a construction site, so can a lower lorry.

do they really ? And how do we excavate down to basement and provide level flat access ? It's about approach and departure angles and the lower the front the shallower the angles. Now out in the suburbs where it is a lovely large site there may be the luxury of a long shallow haul road, indeed on the M25 project that's what was in place. In town on projects like Bloomberg ( the mcalpine job in the city) which is fairly large in comparison to others the haul ramp was almost 45 degrees just to enable the demolition/ excavation to take place.
Also mobile cranes generally used to erect from the road , hence all those PITA closures I have to arrange.
Last one we had on site to erect was done before we dug out to 3rd basement level. So was the existing floor slab .

Once the cab is on the tower crane can self erect .

I thought that there were new designs. The ones shown look like the bin lorries ( that spinners hates as much) we have had since the 80s . That have dire visibility.

Out of pure self indulgence I showed the pics to my dad. Thinks they would work in towns but he would hate to be driving one on a motorway.

I also asked him what he felt safer in a cabover ( sat on engine) or a conventional ( engine in front) cabover won from the sheer visibility point.

Still what does he know , he only drove them for a living and nearly died in one when a " more vulnerable road user" thought it would be great to pull out and stop in front of him. The police investigators were astounded that he didn't kill the nobber. ( the forum would change to flowery daffodil if I posted the real words uttered) and some skilful avoidance ensured

All for safer designs but it has to be the correct balance of practicality and safety. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record ALL ROAD USERS working together from pedestrians looking before they step into the road, to hauliers ( note hauliers) ensuring they don't put pressure on people to bend the rules past breaking point.
It isn't down to one specific group as you can put the safest vehicle Ever on the road with the safest operator and all it takes is one vulnerable user to think they don't have to look after their own safety as well and it all falls down.

Control measures are about time cost benefit and effort to achieve. Any of them get too big and it is not going to happen , as it is not reasonably practicable. Looking out for yourself is one of the easiest to implement .

 

[glenn forger]

It looks to me to be just a promotional board (as is the skip on the back) - the truck appears to be indoors, perhaps at an exhibition / event to promote CLOCS? Correct me though if anyone has seen the vehicles out in public with this livery.

Interesting video on their homepage:

that clip's a lot better than I thought it would be. Of course, in referring to the lack of a industry-wide safety policy it would have been better to include the fact that the RHA opposes any such measure.

 

[summerdays]

Looking out for yourself is one of the easiest to implement .

But we can't just go by that approach, what about a 10 year old on their way to school? It takes time to build up that experience and understanding of the road and you make mistakes along the way. We can't just say look after yourself and we have to expect that people aren't perfect and we watch out for other people making mistakes. You can't predict all mistakes but you can see the situation where you know that it is possible for that mistake to occur - so on a bike passing a side road you look to see if the driver has seen you, so in a lorry with cyclists around..... you need to be looking out for them making a mistake.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

do they really ? And how do we excavate down to basement and provide level flat access ? It's about approach and departure angles and the lower the front the shallower the angles. Now out in the suburbs where it is a lovely large site there may be the luxury of a long shallow haul road, indeed on the M25 project that's what was in place. In town on projects like Bloomberg ( the mcalpine job in the city) which is fairly large in comparison to others the haul ramp was almost 45 degrees just to enable the demolition/ excavation to take place.
Also mobile cranes generally used to erect from the road , hence all those PITA closures I have to arrange.
Last one we had on site to erect was done before we dug out to 3rd basement level. So was the existing floor slab .

Once the cab is on the tower crane can self erect .

I thought that there were new designs. The ones shown look like the bin lorries ( that spinners hates as much) we have had since the 80s . That have dire visibility.

Out of pure self indulgence I showed the pics to my dad. Thinks they would work in towns but he would hate to be driving one on a motorway.

I also asked him what he felt safer in a cabover ( sat on engine) or a conventional ( engine in front) cabover won from the sheer visibility point.

Still what does he know , he only drove them for a living and nearly died in one when a " more vulnerable road user" thought it would be great to pull out and stop in front of him. The police investigators were astounded that he didn't kill the nobber. ( the forum would change to flowery daffodil if I posted the real words uttered) and some skilful avoidance ensured

All for safer designs but it has to be the correct balance of practicality and safety. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record ALL ROAD USERS working together from pedestrians looking before they step into the road, to hauliers ( note hauliers) ensuring they don't put pressure on people to bend the rules past breaking point.
It isn't down to one specific group as you can put the safest vehicle Ever on the road with the safest operator and all it takes is one vulnerable user to think they don't have to look after their own safety as well and it all falls down.

Control measures are about time cost benefit and effort to achieve. Any of them get too big and it is not going to happen , as it is not reasonably practicable. Looking out for yourself is one of the easiest to implement .

It seems to me that the mobile cranes around here (largely riverside developments so hardly luxurious, spacious suburbia) have used a mixture of on and off road sites.

Where muck is being lifted in constricted space you could use either high clearance vehicles or, like deep mines or riverside aggregate barge loaders, use conveyor belts. If you restrict the general use of high vehicles, I suspect constructors would use conveyor belts a fair bit more.

If an inexperienced or careless vulnerable user comes along and gets killed by a security-conscious company vehicle, the whole thing does not fall down. All the safety stuff does is decrease the likelihood of such deaths occurring and give the operator a chance of reducing fatalities to the level incurred by general motor traffic. This thread is here not because there's been a tipper truck fatality, it's here because it's yet another tipper truck fatality. We're nowhere near talking about safe vehicles, we're talking about safer vehicles and concentrating on the ones with the most disproportionate kills-per-mile record. And that prized elevated driving position is clearly not making vulnerable road users any more visible.

 

[subaqua]

Even a 10 yr old knows what's dangerous - I certainly did at 10 . if you saw a tractor going along the road( I grew up in the country where there are far more things that will kill you) you knew to keep well away from it and not go up the inside or ride in the centre of the lane till it was safe to move across to a gate or passing place.

there has to be personal responsibility from ALL parties.

 

[Origamist]

[QUOTE 3567937, member: 9609"]I do think more could be done to provide level hard standing for loading unloading for inner city sites, obviously some specilised vehicles would need to be brought in to create that, but all standard tippers etc should have better side protection.

I think your dads right, lower driving position may have some benefits within cities, but out in the countryside they would be more dangerous, a high driving position is an all important safty feature in a big truck - you have to plan so far ahead.

As for the new designs - they're going to allow manufactures to add 80cm to the front in 7 years time to provide better visibility, safty and aerodynamics. hmmm don't think it is worth getting very excited about.[/QUOTE]

Often small changes can make a big difference. The extra 80cm length that has been mooted allows for a rounded nose with deflection capabilities. In tests with this new frontal shape overruns were entirely avoided in the crash simulations. It also acts as a crumple zone which affords the HGV driver greater protection. Improvements to direct vision will also be incorporated into the design and, the height of the driving position will not compromise driving along major roads as it is not significantly lower.

It’s worth repeating that current brick shape cab designs are not built in order to maximize the safety of road users, but to maximize the payload. This is fundamentally wrong and I’m glad it is being belatedly addressed.

 

[summerdays]

Even a 10 yr old knows what's dangerous - I certainly did at 10 . if you saw a tractor going along the road( I grew up in the country where there are far more things that will kill you) you knew to keep well away from it and not go up the inside or ride in the centre of the lane till it was safe to move across to a gate or passing place.

there has to be personal responsibility from ALL parties.

Not every 10 year old can make those decisions, and some parents don't know what their kids can or can't do as they always ferry them around in a vehicle so not enabling them to learn by experience with a sensible adult (though that didn't make a difference with my middle child who was mid teens before they were able to safely cross a road). I'm not saying they don't know that a lorry is dangerous, I mean they can't always predict their speed/the other vehicle speed reliably and react by putting themselves into danger spots rather than away from them (thinking themselves safe at the side of a road in the gutter for example).

 

[Deleted member 26715]

That's all well and good till they go off-road and get bent, then they'll be sticking out with possible sharp edges

Oh well, another promising idea ruled out. It really does appear that, as far as the industry is concerned, there is nothing to be done.

Er... if I understand correctly it's a piece of correx board that is being used to highlight a key danger area of the vehicle. It's attached to sideguards which are presumably of conventional construction, but are positioned lower. They are trialling the new vehicles - as Adrian says, it's astonishing that such small improvements meet with such bloody-minded resistance.

What a joke some of you are, somebody puts a practical point that, if as shown the tipper goes off road, they will bottom out & get bent, so you throw your dummies out of the pram saying there's nothing to be done & the industry doesn't care, seriously guys grow up a bit.

It isn't/wasn't a case of there is nothing to be done. or bloody-minded resistance it's a fact, it will get damaged & possibly be more dangerous if it went out onto the road.

I will honestly say I don't know what the answer is, I believe there are faults on both sides, there are some drivers/firms cutting corners to save time/money, but there are some very ill educated cyclists/car drivers out there putting themselves into dangerous places they shouldn't be. I've not driven HGV's for a few years, but I suspect the issues are the same/worse now, I've had cyclists/cars trying to come up the inside when I've had to go right to swing into a left turn.

Never worked for a company always agency as it was only a supplement job when my other was slow, but was asked a couple of times why it took me longer to get somewhere or the round took longer, I had a stock reply, it's my license, it's my life, I won't break speed limits or restrictions for anyone, never had an accident & don't intend to, if you don't like it then ask the agency not to send me again, exactly the opposite happened, several companies used to ask for me by name if they could have me if I was working.

I think the number of 'bad' firms/drivers is small, but the consequence of their actions can be great.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

No! move on

 

[Origamist]

What a joke some of you are, somebody puts a practical point that, if as shown the tipper goes off road, they will bottom out & get bent, so you throw your dummies out of the pram saying there's nothing to be done & the industry doesn't care, seriously guys grow up a bit.

It isn't/wasn't a case of there is nothing to be done. or bloody-minded resistance it's a fact, it will get damaged & possibly be more dangerous if it went out onto the road.

I will honestly say I don't know what the answer is, I believe there are faults on both sides, there are some drivers/firms cutting corners to save time/money, but there are some very ill educated cyclists/car drivers out there putting themselves into dangerous places they shouldn't be. I've not driven HGV's for a few years, but I suspect the issues are the same/worse now, I've had cyclists/cars trying to come up the inside when I've had to go right to swing into a left turn.

A lot of companies have fitted side-guards to tippers in their fleet: Cemex, Sita UK, Conway, etc.

Whilst it is true that vehicles going off road in more demanding situations may be more likely to incur damage to side-guards, it is possible to overcome this with the fitment of detachable or retractable side-guards. The main reason these are not used by the construction industry is cited as cost...