I notice that's its over a year since the thread has been added too .
Anymore thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of a belt drive ?? Mainly on the touring angle ?
Did anyone find out the cost of the woodrup Rolloff gates belt setup ?
I'm in the market for a new bike and off too look at a Thorn (NewRaven ) but can't a belt out of my mind .
I do have a Trek Soho belt setup but have only used it on small commuting runs . It's great on the back of a motorhome , no oil about when you strapping it on .
Further info below
There is an article about the Woodrup Chimera BD bike in the ctc mag Cycle for Feb/Mar.It is on page 74.
Read it in disbelief.
I'd be interested to know what Vernon thinks about the review, if he's seen it.
A comprehensive answer is below.
I thought it was a very poor review, it told nothing of the bike at all, they may as well of just printed the photos.
Woodrup Cycles agree totally see below
And having ridden the very same bike that was reviewed I didn't recognise it from what was written by Dan Joyce. I got the feeling that the reviewer didn't like belt drives or hub gearing and I also got the feeling that he didn't do that many miles on it. He seemed to think of it as best suited as a commuter/leisure bike and failed to get over that the bike reviewed was the prototype and the fact that there is not a 'standard model' as it is a bespoke hand built bike and every component can be changed. I got the idea that he approached the review with pre-conceived ideas and did not allow them to be altered.
Here's the full story on my take on the Woodrup Chimera also summarising the points previously made in this thread:
I was not a fan of Rohloff Hubs and considered them to be a an expensive way of changing gears and having read the evangelic literature produced by Thorn I was still unconvinced by the claimed advantages. I found the Thorn bikes to be pig ugly adding a further reason for me to stick with derailleur framed bikes. I maintained this mind set even after chatting to a married couple who had matching Thorn bikes with Rohloffs. There were not evangelical about the hubs or the bikes and merely stated that they were happy with them and that they were steady, smooth and comfortable rides hardly a glowing testimony.
The following year I spotted several Rose and Santos Rohloff hubbed bikes on the Danube Radweg and aesthetically they were far superior to the agricultural offerings of Thorn. I spotted a belt driven Santos and my curiosity was piqued. I chatted to its Dutch owner, a naval architect and he was unreserved with his praise for the bike. He'd done around 8,000 kilometres and had been able to specify certain aspects of the build with Santos. He assured me that he was never going back to chain drive. When I asked him what I considered to be the 'deal braker' question, "What would you do mid-tour if your belt snapped?" his answer was instant. "Have one Fed Exed out". His reasoning was that it might lose a day or two but it was no big deal and, besides it was a similar situation to a wheel failure or frame failure i.e. not something that should be factored in and requiring a similar delay to resolve.
Any road up to the review of the same Woodrup as featured in the CTC comic. I took the bike for a 65 mile ride and was actively encouraged to do so by the Woodrups as they wanted to know how it faired over a decent distance as opposed to shorter urban loops traditionally used in road tests. They knew that I was a cycle tourer and audaxer and wanted my evaluation of the bike on a longer ride. Like I said, I had my doubts - cost, belt drive, Rohloff hub, drag they all were dispersed. I my ride to Darlington I was surprised by the silence of the bike in the top seven gears - no transmission noise. There was a whirring from the hub when the lower seven gears were used via an internal transfer shaft. The noise wasn't intrusive and I spent little time in the lower gears. Despite the bike being bespoke only the seat height was adjusted to accommodate me and I used whatever saddle was fitted at the time. In terms of drag - I can't say that I noticed any. In terms of speed, it was about a mile per hour slower which translated to about a twenty minute time difference some of that, in my opinion was accounted for by the lower gearing and the fatter tyres - it's primarily a touring bike not a time trial machine. In the context of touring twenty minutes is neither here nor there.
The bike was comfortable from the outset and I arrived in Darlington feeling fresh and confident that there were plenty of miles left in my legs. One of the claimed benefits of the Rohloff was the ability to change gear when stationary and I poo pooed the claimed advantages until I reached Northallerton where my arrival coincided with an Orange Order march and a traffic snarl up with pedestrians stepping out in from of the bike. I would have been caught out on a derailleured bike and would have been in the wrong gear(s) for much of the time it took to get through the centre of the town. It reduced the stress of riding. Whilst on the subject of gearing, I found the spacing to be fine and it was always possible to find the right gear I found myself changing gear more often than I would with a derailleur bike because I found it easier to maintain a comfortable cadence.
The test ride clinched it for me and I was determined to become an owner of a Chimera. I had planned to take the bike out for a second day's riding but felt off colour and returned the bike after the weekend. It was two and a half months later in December before I placed my deposit, my feeling off colour was the prelude to being hospitalised with cellulitis and subsequently being house bound.
The purchasing experience:
The opening gambit involved having chat with Tony Woodrup about what sort of components could be used and different sets of specifications were drawn up by him covering "good", "better" and "best" set ups which were costed up and presented to me to help me find a combination that would meet my needs, tastes and budget. Things like tube sets for the frame, head sets, wheel hubs, spokes, rims, seat, handlebar grips, tyres, number and type of braze on as well as finishing kit were all laid out in spreadsheet tables and emailed to me allowing me to play around with mixing and matching to get what I wanted. Having done that I then returned to the shop with my existing tourer to form part of the measuring up procedure with Kevin Sayles their frame builder. I also took in a colour computer print out of how I wanted the frame to be finished. Once frame building commenced I received regular emailed photo updates on progress until finally I got the 'come and collect' email when I turned up and paid the balance and collected the bike of my dreams.
The build:
My Chimera has 853 tubing and a cast faux twin plate fork crown. It is a lugless fillet brazed construction and the joints were a joy to behold in the fram building workshop. I was invited up to see progress during the build, an advantage of living a few miles from the shop. I have three sets of bottle bosses fitted along with a set of spoke holders on a chain stay. A set of guides were brazed onto the forks and cross bar to carry the cabling from the front dynamo to the rack mounted rear light and the fork crown mounted front light. I specified a Brook B17 and was dissuaded from getting a green seat to go with the frame - black matches the dynamo, hub, wheels, spokes and chainset. The rear drop outs are sliding units to adjust the belt tension but can also accommodate chain drive and derailleurs. I chose a BBB stem, bars, and seat post. I also have a stainless steel head badge, a transfer is the standard provision. The rear dropouts were also polished up - painted or plain is the standard option I think. A nice touch that I didn't ask for was an unobtrusive false lug with my initial cut out. It is a unique identifying feature for the bike. There is also Kevin Sayles' makers badge a stainless steel heart with an 'S' brazed onto the bottom bracket. It is a beautiful bike so much so that it's allowed to live in the house.
The riding experience:
My Chimera has slightly lower gearing than the one reviewed with a 17'" bottom gear matching that of my old tourer. It also doesn't have the S&S couplings but has 853 tubing instead of 725. I have a SON delux dynamo hub and a kick stand fitted to the rear sliding drop out. I chose lower gearing because I was porkier than a porky thing attending the University of Porkiness. After a few rides I noticed that I was getting pains in my hands and had the spacers adjusted as well as the stem length. The fork rider had been left uncut to cater for this eventuality. There was no charge for the adjustment.
I have used the Chimera for urban rides, 100km audaxes, tow path riding and touring. Mice, a FNRttC rider, is in lust with my 'Woodruff' and she's had a few goes in Hull and Brighton - she's a convert to the notion of belt drive. It delivers a supremely comfortable ride and is stable at all speeds fully loaded and unladen. The XT V-brakes are excellent and inspire confidence. The Rohloff hub is becoming quieter in the lower gears and I'm about to change the oil in the hub, an annual mantainance event which will be the only thing that I've had to do to the bike apart from adjusting the front brake. I checked the belt tension just last week and it's the same as it was on delivery nothing to do there. The tension testing tool is crude but effective - a steel straight edge to lay on the top of the belt spanning both belt sprockets and a metal cylinder to hang off the belt with a colour coded sticker to indicate if the tension is 'over', 'under' or fine. It's a check done in seconds. Alternative tools exist - a 'crikit' which is pressed onto the belt until it clicks and the tension is read off the edge of a pointer agains a scale.
Pedalling action is different to that of my conventional bikes in that when I am winching my way up steep hills I do not get the sensation of a pending 'stall' where forward progress comes to a halt and a sideways fall follows. There does not seem to be a top dead centre to overcome on the power stroke. On the London - Brighton FNRttC I encountered a fast descent and went for it. The bike is very stable at speed unladen and soaked up road irregularities effortlessly. The true test came at Ditchling Beacon where I had expected to meet my Nemesis but with the encouragement of mmmmMartin of this community I hauled my 21 stone butt up the climb without having to dismount. Some of the success was down to improved fitness I'd practiced on a 100km audax with 6,000 feet of ascent and only Park Rash a 1:3 - 1:4 climb defeated me. The failing was due to my weigh and not to the bike. It was gratifying to complete that audax faster than others riding a flatter route of the same distance. My bike is 'pedalled out' at around 23-25mph not a problem in my view as speed was not a primary concern when I specced the gearing. When I am considerably less porky I might consider changing the sprockets to raise the gearing though I'll have to evaluate that when I reach a 'normal' BMI - don't hold your breath.
On the touring front. My first tour was a mini tour into the Cheshire/Staffordshire with a pal to give him a rund down trial of cycle camping before he accompanied me on a tour along the Danube. I've returned to using four panniers if only to segregate my gear making it possible to access stuff more easily. The addition of a full camping load did not materially affect the handling of the bike and there's nothing to add regarding ride quality other than the kick side stand earns its keep when loading the bike up in a camp site where there's nothing to much to lean the bike against when breaking camp.
Cycling along the Danube was painless and effortless. It's a fairly flat route with a few minor hills. There were some loose sandy surfaces and a few sections of unmade road but nothing to upset the handling of the bike. I had one puncture and repairing it was a doddle. My drop out and hub combination had a quick release skewer and once the external indexing unit was unscrewed and the snubber roller pulled aside, 15 seconds worth of labour, the wheel removal and replacement was the same as any other QR wheel.
What would I change?
Having eschewed S&S couplings I am now wondering if they would be useful now that I'm likely to be riding the Northern Tier route across America and would like the bike to arrive undamaged. The complications of where to store the bike box and arrange for its transfer across America is a counter balance to the argument for S&S couplings though.
I ought to do a tooth count of the belt - they come in different lengths. Replacement is a long way off as there's no sign of wear yet so I'm in no hurry to be able to order a replacement.
I wish that the Rohloff oil change kit was available in larger oil capacities. There's just enough oil for one replacement and the syringe and tube can be re-used but is an integral part of the kit.
Apart from the need to adjust the stem height and reach, Woodrup Cycles hit bullseye with their build of my bike. I do not envisage having to buy another tourer ever and I get a lot of pleasure out of owning a bike that meets my needs and knowing that it was handcrafted here in the UK
The review of the CTC review
Having read the review I formed the opinion that the reviewer had a firm opinion of what his needs were and anything that deviated from his notion of perfection was cast aside. The review was more to do with his personal preferences and less to do with what the bike was about and what it could actually do. He displayed his ignorance of what the bike was about and about the underlying technology. The bike is more or less brand new it's done about three hundred miles of which I'm responsible for twenty percent. The hub might be draggy but I didn't detect any dragginess. The whirring of the gears might influence the notion that drag is occuring. Yes I'm aware that there is some drag in the transmission but I suggest that this would only show up on power meters and is not really felt in the legs.
I'd like to know how many miles the reviewer rode the bike for and how far his longest ride was. He places more store in his town rides as the benchmark for judging the bike and failed to explore its capabilities on a perfect test bed, the Whitby - Scarborough cycle path or to ride with it loaded up for touring. I think that he's pinning too much on drag to account for a lower speed - as I've mentioned the bike is geared quite low, not as low as mine admittedly but low enough to make a difference. In some instances he's stating the obvious - a 26" wheeled bike is different to a 700c wheeled bike in ride sensations and behaviour.
Once again he displays his ignorance by stating that he'd risk going outside of the ratios recommended by Rolhoff to be able to spend more time in the top seven gears when this would invalidate the Rohloff guarantee and would lower the top speed of the bike making the cruising speed even lower.
To dismiss the bike as an extraordinarily expensive town bike in his summary really does invalidate the whole review. I've always treated reviews with a pinch of salt. This one needs the output of a salt mine.
ADDENDUM
I had already formulated my review of the review when I called in to Woodrup Cycles on Wednesday. They had received several phone calls from customers berating the review but they had not seen a copy of the review. I would have expected as a matter of courtesy from them to have received an advance copy of the review or a draft. They did not have a good feeling when they handed the bike over to be told by the reviewer the he couldn't see the point in belt drive and he was more interested in stem length, and handle bar width than the bike as a whole. There was some disappointment voiced but they have faith in their product. My bike has generated sales for the Chimera and Woodrup Cycles have received nothing but praise for the bike from the folk who have had one built. They are confident that tourers who are 'in the know' will see the review for what it is.
I have no connection with Woodrup Cycles other than being a very satisfied customer of long standing and an owner of their Chimera tourer. It is a realistic option for anyone contemplating buying a hub driven touring bike and anyone who wants a Chimera without the expense of hub drive can opt for a conventional chain driven derailleured Chimera as well as having the Shimano Alfine hub as an option - something that I'd considered to lower the cost but its bottom gear was not low enough for my needs. Giving Woodrups a ring to discuss options and pricing could well be the path to owning a quality bit of kit. There's nowt to lose and a whole lot to gain.
Searching for 'Vernon's Chimera' and 'Woodrup Chimera' on google images will see my bike under construction and completed as well as some other Rolhoff hubbed bikes built by Woodrup Cycles to give an idea some of the build options.
