Would you be interested in having your wheels built for free?

[Spoked Wheels]

I've been thinking about this for a while so here are my thoughts.

Wheelbuilding is my hobby so I have already built quite a few wheels and my technique is strong by now. Roger Musson is the master!

I have only 5 bikes at home and only two needed new wheels so I'm done with that. Two friends are riding wheels built my me at the moment. One set of MTB wheels and another set of road wheels, both happy so far and I expect them to be happy till they need a new rim. Both sets have been ridden in excess of 400 miles, in fact, the road wheelset was nearing 1100 miles by last Sunday night (my friend is only a part time commuter otherwise it would near 4000 miles by now). I know that1100 miles is not a lot but I expect them to go trouble free till they need a new rim. The wheels I built for myself are going well too, one set is being stacked on 22 miles since the first ride but the other set has done over 650 miles without any problems and I'm 16 and half stones.

I have an old set of wheels that I keep rebuilding and testing time and time again, 39 times so far - getting a bit bored with that - the rims are not perfect and the spokes for one of the wheels are a bit short so all that makes it a bit more interesting I guess

So, my experience so far is 47 wheels under my belt, plus other bit and pieces I've done for friends, not a huge number but hey wheelbuilding is not rocket science, in fact, it's not difficult, that's all I have to say for now on that or I might make some people uncomfortable With so much choice, choosing the right components can potentially be the hard part, where the experience really counts in my view. The knowledge some wheelbuilders have on components blows me away.

So, instead of rebuilding those old wheels time and time again I'm quite happy to build your wheels for free. The only condition that I must insist on is that you don't ask me to build you a low spoke count wheel for a heavy rider. Wheel rebuilding / re-rimming is fine but I will not waste time with rusty spokes or spokes with busted nipples. So if you have a wheel that needs rebuilding, if the spokes are not good then invest in a set of spokes and I'll be happy to rebuild it for you.

I know that I can build very good wheels but at the moment this has to be just a hobby. I don't know how long I will be happy to do this for, all will depend on how this affect the rest of my day. I can't spend all day with my hobby, can I? I also like to ride a bike sometimes

If you are interested then contact me by PM or post on this thread with details of what you have in mind. I will send you my details but please do not publish them in a post.

For people in my area, Bournemouth, this would be easy, simply a matter of dropping and picking up the wheels but for those further away...mmmm not so sure, I guess if you don't mind paying for postage then it would be possible.

If I brake any component while building the wheel, I'll pay for it (I don't expect to brake any so no CB rims just yet).

Finally, a piece of advice from an experienced wheelbuilder with regards rebuilding / fixing wheels, there are some factory built wheels that nobody wants to touch so I reserve the right to politely turn you down

I hope to be able to update this thread with information that becomes available to me as I go along.

I have passed this idea by Shaun and he is happy for me to go ahead with it and create the thread.


Disclaimer.
"RRSODL is not responsible for any personal injury occurred while using this wheel or wheel set. These wheel(s) are made or re-built to a requested specification. measures are taken to reduce the likelihood of their failure and advice will be given as to their appropriateness for their intended function. However their integrity is not guaranteed and they are to be used at the owners risk. Regular maintenance is always recommended with any mechanical object particularly if that object's integrity carries a risk to personal safety. In particular, checks for cracks in components, loss of spoke tension, loss of wheel trueness and bearing integrity should be carried out regularly. "
Ricardo

 

[avsd]

Best of luck with this. Interesting offer but the postage and time would not work for me in Ireland

 

[I like Skol]

Sounds ok in principle but..........

.....I'm sure you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of liability and litigation issues. When one of your wheels fail and someone gets hurt, maybe crippled for life, how do you think it will be handled when it is discovered that the wheel was built by a third party amateur for free?
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your wheels, heck I build my own wheels for myself and family, but people always like to place blame and you have to be aware that in a case where compensation was being sought you would be an easy target.

Are you happy with that responsibility? Maybe some insurance is appropriate?

 

[400bhp]

Good point from Skolly. Public liability on house insurance might cover it, then again it might not. Best to check.

Edit, even if it wasn't the wheel that caused an accident, some ambulance chaser may try it on. Legal cover needed.

 

[fossyant]

It is a good idea, but there may be a need for a disclaimer. Even my LBS said if I wanted a set of hubs built radial I would have to sign a disclaimer as the hubs were not designed for radial, despite being fitted with radial spokes for 15 years prior to the rebuild. Things change..

That said its a good thing, mates rates and there I nothing like building wheels. I was confident in my first set. Handbuilts dont fail catastrophically ever.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Sounds ok in principle but..........

.....I'm sure you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of liability and litigation issues. When one of your wheels fail and someone gets hurt, maybe crippled for life, how do you think it will be handled when it is discovered that the wheel was built by a third party amateur for free?
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your wheels, heck I build my own wheels for myself and family, but people always like to place blame and you have to be aware that in a case where compensation was being sought you would be an easy target.

Are you happy with that responsibility? Maybe some insurance is appropriate?

Excellent point. How do wheelbuilders deal with this issue? I haven't paid too much interest in wheelbuilders websites but from the few i have read I haven't seen any mention of insurance.

In conversations with wheelbuilders the only thing that comes clear everytime is that they are very reluctant to build low spoke count wheels. Something that I would not do.

I'll have to find out.

Good point from Skolly. Public liability on house insurance might cover it, then again it might not. Best to check.

Edit, even if it wasn't the wheel that caused an accident, some ambulance chaser may try it on. Legal cover needed.

The question still remains, how do wheelbuilders do this? Has anybody found out from their wheelbuilder? My guess is that they are careful with the components they use. In conversations with wheel builders they play it extremely safe and the issue raised by Skool must be the reason behind.

For me it's just a hobby so I don't really want this to become an expense . I think for now a disclaimer is probably the right thing to do.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

It is a good idea, but there may be a need for a disclaimer. Even my LBS said if I wanted a set of hubs built radial I would have to sign a disclaimer as the hubs were not designed for radial, despite being fitted with radial spokes for 15 years prior to the rebuild. Things change..

That said its a good thing, mates rates and there I nothing like building wheels. I was confident in my first set. Handbuilts dont fail catastrophically ever.

I agree, a disclaimer seems like a good solution.

I've seen so many disclaimers such as if part is not fitted by a certified mechanic..... then blah blah.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Can somebody help with the wording of a disclaimer please?

Here is what I have so far:


Disclaimer of Liability: With respect to wheels built, re-built or repaired by me (Ricardo, AKA RRSODL), neither Ricardo, Cyclechat, nor any of their moderators, makes any warranty, express or implied, including the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, product, or process disclosed.

Cheers

 

[fossyant]

I would say, as this is a gentlemen's agreement, that any offer and acceptance to build a wheel set is outside any commercial arrangement. It all changes if there is a business that builds it these days. A simple disclaimer would be ok. Dont get into any complicated builds. Stick with three cross.

I have trued up numerous wheels for folk, some were beyond real repair, but I have saved them money. I said these wheels are knackered, but they may keep you gojng for a few months.

I now rebuild my own wheels and they take a real battering. But one persons hop up a curb an be a wheel smashing event for another.

I am the local bike expert at work, but one persons expectation is different to mine. Got one fella that is ranting at a big LBS mainstream about drive wear. I was sympathetic, but it comes out he uses the bike every day for short local 3 mile commutes but has not oiled the chain or cleaned the bike in 8 months since new. I show him mine, its 4 years old, gets cleaned and oiled after every wet ride. He now sees why he is at fault.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

I would say, as this is a gentlemen's agreement, that any offer and acceptance to build a wheel set is outside any commercial arrangement. It all changes if there is a business that builds it these days. A simple disclaimer would be ok. Dont get into any complicated builds. Stick with three cross.

I have trued up numerous wheels for folk, some were beyond real repair, but I have saved them money. I said these wheels are knackered, but they may keep you gojng for a few months.

I now rebuild my own wheels and they take a real battering. But one persons hop up a curb an be a wheel smashing event for another.

I am the local bike expert at work, but one persons expectation is different to mine. Got one fella that is ranting at a big LBS mainstream about drive wear. I was sympathetic, but it comes out he uses the bike every day for short local 3 mile commutes but has not oiled the chain or cleaned the bike in 8 months since new. I show him mine, its 4 years old, gets cleaned and oiled after every wet ride. He now sees why he is at fault.

I like it, "as this is a gentlemen's agreement, that any offer and acceptance to build a wheel set is outside any commercial arrangement." but does it have any legal value in case something goes wrong?

I have a friend who is an experienced wheelbuilder who has given me a few great tips so I know a few combinations that don't work and some other useful tips. In any case I'd play on the safe side.

I rebuilt a front wheel the other day for a friend of a friend. The wheel had been built by Spa Cycles and it was in a mess. I'm sure the wheel received plenty of punishment and zero care maybe worse than that. The wheel belonged to a teenage boy who probably never heard the word maintenance I never saw the rear wheel but I can imagine

 

[biggs682]

sounds a great idea

 

[accountantpete]

The postage is going to be a problem. Packing the wheel securely takes ages and then you have to take it down the PO who will keep you waiting for 10 minutes and charge you £12 at the very least.

You can use an alternative delivery service but if there's no-one home the self-employed delivery guy slings it over the back fence and pushes a note through the door (If you are lucky).

Personally i would look into the murky world of rim strengths and spoke tensions which is the real key to a good wheel and then offer to build wheels for a local racer or two.

 

[I like Skol]

Disclaimers, as the saying goes, aren't worth the paper they are written on! I am not trying to be a doom monger and the likelyhood of anything going wrong is slim but I just wanted to make sure you considered this before the situation arose rather than after. Of couse you could just hope for the best and ignore the issue all together, I'm sure there are many commercial ventures that do.

Liability insurance is a huge grey area and a minefield. I had my own business for 13yrs and had public and employers liability insurance for around half that time. The certificates of insurance were very impressive and contained many zeros, they were a requirement to even get your foot in the door as a contractor for some of the large PLCs I did work for but at the end of the day what were they worth?

Every year I would phone around the insurance companies and give them a description of the type of work I did and the mix of customers I had and they would shuffle me into an appropriate slot and give me a quote accordingly. My business was transport, deliveries and office relocation. My work was about as varied as you could possibly imagine. Suppose I was working at a property and there was a loose floorboard, right in the doorway where we all kept tripping over it. To prevent an accident I use my cordless screwdriver that is normally used for assembling office furniture and put a spare screw in the floorboard, job done and everyone is saved a nasty fall. After I leave the premises it burns down, it turns out I put the screw through a wire. Not to worry my liability insurance covers me up to 2 million pounds so it's all ok right? Well, what happens when the insurance company turns around and says "Building repairs? You never mentioned building repairs. Sorry, no cover!".

How many insurance policies will just give liability cover for any eventuality? All my customers wanted was to see a certificate with the company name on, the 'liability' word and the correct number of zeros. I had to trust that my insurer had given me the right cover as I couldn't possibly ask specifically if 101 plausible accidents and situations would be covered, I just hoped they were.

You have a few options.

• One is to just hope for the best as you are unlikely to ever be in a situation that makes you liable in a big way.
• Second is to buy insurance and hope it gives the cover you require.
• Third is to give up on the idea and just stick to doing this by word of mouth for friends that you know, after all it's not a money making project so why would you risk exposing yourself to a situation where you could lose everything you have?

 

[400bhp]

I would say, as this is a gentlemen's agreement, that any offer and acceptance to build a wheel set is outside any commercial arrangement. It all changes if there is a business that builds it these days. A simple disclaimer would be ok. Dont get into any complicated builds. Stick with three cross.

Afraid not Foss. An agreement is an agreement so to speak.

And disclaimers aren't really worth the paper they are written on.

Perhaps a lawyer from CC can comment. Do we have any?

 

[fossyant]

Afraid not Foss. An agreement is an agreement so to speak.

And disclaimers aren't really worth the paper they are written on.

Perhaps a lawyer from CC can comment. Do we have any?

You are most likely right, but what a world it is where you can't offer to build a wheel for someone for cost as a favour without the fear of getting your ass sued !