Zwift Chat

[CXRAndy]

FWIW if you are training for real life mountain rides I think you should train at 100%. I know that setting the slider at 50% only affects gear range and not power output but you should train to the gear range you will have in the mountains. The fact is you engage different muscles in different ways when you ride at 100% and that is ideal preparation for a similar experience in the mountains.

I agree, but you've got to ride with similar cadence and heart rate. For lightweight riders having a standard setup@100% is fine because it transfers to outdoor.

I could use my Tripster on 100%, but rather leave my CXR on the turbo full time and in my case leave resistance on 50%. The setup then allows me to spin at the cadences I need to replicate outdoors.

I know with accuracy that at a certain cadence and HR, the power I'm making so don't really need to have a PM on my Tripster. For me its about cadence, whilst training or riding generally Zwift/Trainer-Road.

 

[Whorty]

To be fair you use a fan to keep cool, your performance would be hindered without air movement.

Its probably why I've never had the issues highlighted cause my big fan blows air all over my setup, so probably adds enough cooling for the Kickr

I think it's a time thing too. I went up Innsbruck reverse KoM which has 14% sections earlier this week and no issues, but I climbed that in 27 minutes. It was close to 65 mins when the crazy crazy kicked in yesterday, although I think it started playing up earlier (maybe after 35-40 mins) but it was less obvious then. In Zwiftland only the Alpe has this long climb and I've only read of people having issues on that, no other climbs.

Once I set the realism back to 0% power looked fine again. So I think it's linked to the trainer being able to hold the high resistance. Set it to 0% reality, and presumably resistance in trainer is low, so the trainer can cope.

Not sure if it's only an earlier kickr issue or if later ones have it too. You could try gong up Alpe in Zwift at 100% reality with your new kickr and see how it goes

 

[Whorty]

FWIW if you are training for real life mountain rides I think you should train at 100%. I know that setting the slider at 50% only affects gear range and not power output but you should train to the gear range you will have in the mountains. The fact is you engage different muscles in different ways when you ride at 100% and that is ideal preparation for a similar experience in the mountains.

This is exactly why I wanted to climb the Alpe at 100% . I've been up loads of times at 50% (and in workout mode) and it's 'easy', but climbing at 100% and with the much lower cadence is so much more realistic, and difficult. Need to get another fan as I want to improve my real climbing ability

 

[<Tommy>]

I agree, but you've got to ride with similar cadence and heart rate. For lightweight riders having a standard setup@100% is fine because it transfers to outdoor.

I could use my Tripster on 100%, but rather leave my CXR on the turbo full time and in my case leave resistance on 50%. The setup then allows me to spin at the cadences I need to replicate outdoors.

I know with accuracy that at a certain cadence and HR, the power I'm making so don't really need to have a PM on my Tripster. For me its about cadence, whilst training or riding generally Zwift/Trainer-Road.

This is the big advantage of having the option to control realism. And why I think it’s a nice touch that a few of the platforms now incorporate it. It obviously means you can get the same gear ratios to accommodate a wide range of terrains.
On a side note it’s also a massive selling point of the tacx bike that you can create whichever set up you’d like.

I’d be very surprised if can accurately state your power from your heart rate and cadence though bud. You could do it if you knew the incline and cadence. But heart rate is so changeable. I think it’s a lot easier to guesstimate on the turbo than in the real world.

I’d recommend all you guys get powermeters. To be honest I’m surprised more of you haven’t got them already. Seeing as they’re so integral to turbo training, they are also just if not more useful out in the real world.

 

[bobinski]

I agree, but you've got to ride with similar cadence and heart rate. For lightweight riders having a standard setup@100% is fine because it transfers to outdoor.

I could use my Tripster on 100%, but rather leave my CXR on the turbo full time and in my case leave resistance on 50%. The setup then allows me to spin at the cadences I need to replicate outdoors.

I know with accuracy that at a certain cadence and HR, the power I'm making so don't really need to have a PM on my Tripster. For me its about cadence, whilst training or riding generally Zwift/Trainer-Road.

Andy, I am probably being obtuse here (whats new?) but unless one is only training to ride and race in zwift then training should be geared (sorry) to what you are aiming to do in real life. Choose your set up accordingly to imitate what will be you real life experience. Cadence and HR will follow.

 

[bobinski]

Well on one hand that obviously sucks. But on the other hand at least there’s some type of work around. I wonder if it’s a problem with all kickrs or just the older versions. Or maybe it’s the fact the units are aging that has made the effect more pronounced.

@Aleman knowing you’re choosing a new turbo and you like climbing. I think the neo is winning the argument right now!

The NEO had an overheating problem too. I think it only affected earlier models. A fan comes on when you power up the NEO and this cools a circuit board. It sometimes failed and the board overheated. This happened to mine after nearly a year of use. I think there was an element of user error though because the turbo was in a loft that got very hot and i had moved it so that unfortunately it received direct sunlight through a sky light. for part of the day. Sorted that now and touch wood no issues.

 

[Aleman]

@Aleman knowing you’re choosing a new turbo and you like climbing. I think the neo is winning the argument right now!

If I'm really honest, the Neo has always been the front runner, I'm only looking at the Kickr because of the Climb, and that's really just another gadget that I don't need Like yes, want certainly, the interesting thing for me is that @CXRAndy reports that it also increases comfort, for me wanting to do endurance work, that is a critical factor, so while the Neo is No 1, the Kickr / Climb is a close second.

I’d recommend all you guys get powermeters. To be honest I’m surprised more of you haven’t got them already. Seeing as they’re so integral to turbo training, they are also just if not more useful out in the real world.

I like riding to numbers so a power meter is on the cards, possibly very soon, The platforms I'm going to be using from now on (BRVR and Zwift ????) have the ability to take power data from a meter, and control the resistance of the trainer separately so this could actually extend the life of my BKool Unit until the end of the Indoor season, when prices drop ... and If I get the meter from Wiggle I then go back into Platinum discount range anyway for the trainer.

@TurboTommy your a very bad man! I'm talking myself it spending money that I really shouldn't spend yet

 

[<Tommy>]

Andy, I am probably being obtuse here (whats new?) but unless one is only training to ride and race in zwift then training should be geared (sorry) to what you are aiming to do in real life. Choose your set up accordingly to imitate what will be you real life experience. Cadence and HR will follow.

You are being a little obtuse, which is an improvement for you . Seriously though, you are technically right. But... realistically I think Andy is too. Unless you are prepared to switch between multiple set ups then the realism setting is a good compromise.

 

[<Tommy>]

If I'm really honest, the Neo has always been the front runner, I'm only looking at the Kickr because of the Climb, and that's really just another gadget that I don't need Like yes, want certainly, the interesting thing for me is that @CXRAndy reports that it also increases comfort, for me wanting to do endurance work, that is a critical factor, so while the Neo is No 1, the Kickr / Climb is a close second.


I like riding to numbers so a power meter is on the cards, possibly very soon, The platforms I'm going to be using from now on (BRVR and Zwift ????) have the ability to take power data from a meter, and control the resistance of the trainer separately so this could actually extend the life of my BKool Unit until the end of the Indoor season, when prices drop ... and If I get the meter from Wiggle I then go back into Platinum discount range anyway for the trainer.

@TurboTommy your a very bad man! I'm talking myself it spending money that I really shouldn't spend yet

You’re actually making decisions that could improve and extend your life. Very hard to argue against that

That’s a good idea about the Bkool pro. It’s like a win win waiting because you get to see if wahoo work out their issues.

 

[bridgy]

This is the big advantage of having the option to control realism. And why I think it’s a nice touch that a few of the platforms now incorporate it. It obviously means you can get the same gear ratios to accommodate a wide range of terrains.
On a side note it’s also a massive selling point of the tacx bike that you can create whichever set up you’d like.

I’d be very surprised if can accurately state your power from your heart rate and cadence though bud. You could do it if you knew the incline and cadence. But heart rate is so changeable. I think it’s a lot easier to guesstimate on the turbo than in the real world.

I’d recommend all you guys get powermeters. To be honest I’m surprised more of you haven’t got them already. Seeing as they’re so integral to turbo training, they are also just if not more useful out in the real world.

The other reason Zwift has the "difficulty/realism" control is to accommodate smart trainers that can't replicate the really steep inclines. This is a good thing, but the problem from a competitive/level playing field point of view is that you rely on the user to set the difficulty. So if a rider has a smart trainer that can only replicate 7% slopes and goes up a 12% slope on Zwift with difficulty set to 100% I suspect they get an unfair advantage (as the resistance being applied by their trainer isn't actually what Zwift thinks it is). I have experienced this myself on the Bkool. I can't remember what the official specs say for the Bkool but I know for a rider of my weight that anything over 9-10% incline at 100% difficulty and it stops adding any more resistance. As a result I think I go quicker than I should in these circumstances, and therefore should reduce the difficulty for it to be fair. This will be the case with lots of trainers, not just the Bkool of course.

 

[<Tommy>]

The other reason Zwift has the "difficulty/realism" control is to accommodate smart trainers that can't replicate the really steep inclines. This is a good thing, but the problem from a competitive/level playing field point of view is that you rely on the user to set the difficulty. So if a rider has a smart trainer that can only replicate 7% slopes and goes up a 12% slope on Zwift with difficulty set to 100% I suspect they get an unfair advantage (as the resistance being applied by their trainer isn't actually what Zwift thinks it is). I have experienced this myself on the Bkool. I can't remember what the official specs say for the Bkool but I know for a rider of my weight that anything over 9-10% incline at 100% difficulty and it stops adding any more resistance. As a result I think I go quicker than I should in these circumstances, and therefore should reduce the difficulty for it to be fair. This will be the case with lots of trainers, not just the Bkool of course.

That is always going to be a problem I guess.

It’s goes back to the way I feel about online riding in general to be honest. Maybe coming from Bkool where there was always a chance our turbos behaved differently gave us a good grounding in that regard.

I think you’ll always be at the mercy of software designers who decide algorithms in regard weight, size, etc etc. And hardware designers who you rely on to create an accurate product. Basically the real world is the truth and the virtual world is always to be taken with a pinch of salt! At least if that guy who doesn’t adjust his realism setting to allow for his trainers limitations is consistent with his manipulation, you can gage your improvement vs him no matter how strong he truly is in reality.

 

[Whorty]

This is the big advantage of having the option to control realism. And why I think it’s a nice touch that a few of the platforms now incorporate it. It obviously means you can get the same gear ratios to accommodate a wide range of terrains.
On a side note it’s also a massive selling point of the tacx bike that you can create whichever set up you’d like.

I’d be very surprised if can accurately state your power from your heart rate and cadence though bud. You could do it if you knew the incline and cadence. But heart rate is so changeable. I think it’s a lot easier to guesstimate on the turbo than in the real world.

I’d recommend all you guys get powermeters. To be honest I’m surprised more of you haven’t got them already. Seeing as they’re so integral to turbo training, they are also just if not more useful out in the real world.

Thing is, if i got a power meter i'd no longer need the kickr (i assume) and would be just as well off using the Bkool Pro. I'd also need new shoes as mine are SPDs and i don't believe there are pedal meters for SPDs.

Cash it tight at the moment as had to go part time, so nothing on the cards, but if the kickr did die at some stage I'd be more interested in the Neo smart bike ..... but I'll let early adopters test it out first and iron out the bugs

 

[CXRAndy]

Tommy you're right with the true accuracy of using HR, it does fluctuate and if I have unusually high or low HR then something is wrong and i shouldn't be pushing to hit any number. I can gauge that 148-155bpm at 90-95rpm is ~250W 165-170bpm same cadence is ~300W

Going up mountains for me, is more about getting up them comfortably, I'm never going to chase down anyone who is 15-20KG lighter. The Pb's are my personal challenge.

I'll see how my new gearing works in Gran Canaria, Im hoping to stay above 90rpm whilst keeping as low as possible HR, ideally zone 2

 

[bridgy]

That is always going to be a problem I guess.

It’s goes back to the way I feel about online riding in general to be honest. Maybe coming from Bkool where there was always a chance our turbos behaved differently gave us a good grounding in that regard.

I think you’ll always be at the mercy of software designers who decide algorithms in regard weight, size, etc etc. And hardware designers who you rely on to create an accurate product. Basically the real world is the truth and the virtual world is always to be taken with a pinch of salt! At least if that guy who doesn’t adjust his realism setting to allow for his trainers limitations is consistent with his manipulation, you can gauge your improvement vs him no matter how strong he truly is in reality.

Yes - bottom line for me with online racing is the competitive element of riding with/against other riders really pushes me on to get a good workout that I enjoy. I will do what I reasonably can to avoid getting an unfair advantage (although not much you can do about how your own trainer behaves), but if someone I'm racing against is getting an unfair advantage over me I really don't care because a) I'll probably never know anyway and b) they were either too far ahead of me to affect my own race much anyway, or they provided me with someone to have a close race against which meant I got a good workout - which is a good thing! If I don't know them in real life does it really matter if their speed was real or "doped" in some way? I don't really think so.

Of course it would be great if all was completely fair etc. (and it's a good thing to at least aim for this) but as we all know there's far too many variables, but that doesn't (or shouldn't) take away how enjoyable and good for you online racing can be.

 

[bobinski]

Yes - bottom line for me with online racing is the competitive element of riding with/against other riders really pushes me on to get a good workout that I enjoy. I will do what I reasonably can to avoid getting an unfair advantage (although not much you can do about how your own trainer behaves), but if someone I'm racing against is getting an unfair advantage over me I really don't care because a) I'll probably never know anyway and b) they were either too far ahead of me to affect my own race much anyway, or they provided me with someone to have a close race against which meant I got a good workout - which is a good thing! If I don't know them in real life does it really matter if their speed was real or "doped" in some way? I don't really think so.

Of course it would be great if all was completely fair etc. (and it's a good thing to at least aim for this) but as we all know there's far too many variables, but that doesn't (or shouldn't) take away how enjoyable and good for you online racing can be.

Nicely put