Jonathon Tiernan Locke blood passport iffy? (ToB title for Haas?)

[DogTired]

I agree with that completely but I'd regard us as the right side of reasonable.

It's funny that I never real thought his drop off was due to not doping now but rather Sky training methods not suiting him and people question us being cynical. Maybe I'm not quite cynical enough. I'm sure Locke ended up with a nice contract at Sky.

Being cynical with evidence (UCI are investigating) is different to 'well someone's won a competition and a foreigner' (like the Vuelta) so something must be wrong cynical. Sky's different training approach is well documented. The effect on Wiggins' results has been dramatic - he went backwards from 3rd in the TdF in 2009 to 23rd in his first year at Sky so its pretty reasonable to suspect a different regime might hit Locke too.

Until some facts come out about the discrepancies who knows what they are, how significant they are and whether the discrepancies would provide enhanced performances. It could be the one test from 2012 has less suspect figures than this year.

If he has cheated, its surprising none of the well informed experts on this forum detected it. The threshold for slinging mud with little factual evidence is pretty low.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Being cynical with evidence (UCI are investigating) is different to 'well someone's won a competition and a foreigner' (like the Vuelta) so something must be wrong cynical. Sky's different training approach is well documented. The effect on Wiggins' results has been dramatic - he went backwards from 3rd in the TdF in 2009 to 23rd in his first year at Sky so its pretty reasonable to suspect a different regime might hit Locke too.

Until some facts come out about the discrepancies who knows what they are, how significant they are and whether the discrepancies would provide enhanced performances. It could be the one test from 2012 has less suspect figures than this year.

If he has cheated, its surprising none of the well informed experts on this forum detected it. The threshold for slinging mud with little factual evidence is pretty low.

There was discussion at the time, actually...

 

[DogTired]

There was discussion at the time, actually...

Pro-cyclist + win + internet forum = discussion of doping (where doping suspicion is inversely proportional to how much the rider is liked)

Without any facts to go on (such as insider knowledge or a bit of insightful intelligent investigation) where I'm cynical is in suspecting commentards of suggesting doping use purely on successful results so they can say 'see, I told you so'.

Its getting a broken record now.

 

[raindog]

from a Grauniad article
Speaking to the cyclingnews.com website, Smith said that Tiernan-Locke had been tested in 2012 by the Garmin-Sharp team, who were considering taking him on. Garmin are one of the strictest teams where anti-doping is concerned, and test all potential recruits. "[Garmin manager] Jonathan Vaughters got in contact and said there were no abnormalities in Jon's test," said Smith. "I think I even sent the results to [Sky]. They've seen all the data. As far as I'm concerned Jonathan is the real deal. Sky, Garmin and Endura all thought there were no irregularities with Jonathan."

 

[Noodley]

JT-L seems intent on doing things his way even since going to Sky and their "numbers" approach; so I'm not sure how much we can read into the Sky approach has adversly affected him.

As for the abnormalities and the corresponding doping insinuations I suppose it's all part and parcel of cycling, especially given the back story.

 

[thom]

As for the abnormalities and the corresponding doping insinuations I suppose it's all part and parcel of cycling, especially given the back story.

<Snort=deactivate><Guffaw=deactivate>
wise words @Noodley - its just one hell of a situation to be in and we all have to work to pull it back from the brink goddamit !
<Guffaw=reactivate><Snort=reactivate>

 

[Shaun]

Just a FYI - I've merged the two threads discussing this (and added both thread titles for clarification).

 

[Crackle]

Pro-cyclist + win + internet forum = discussion of doping (where doping suspicion is inversely proportional to how much the rider is liked)

Without any facts to go on (such as insider knowledge or a bit of insightful intelligent investigation) where I'm cynical is in suspecting commentards of suggesting doping use purely on successful results so they can say 'see, I told you so'.

Its getting a broken record now.

This is largely wrong. Relatively few riders have had the finger of suspicion pointed at them and if you mean Horner, well, USADA have spent a fair bit of time and effort conducting out of competition tests on him, they must be reading the posts on here.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Pro-cyclist + win + internet forum = discussion of doping (where doping suspicion is inversely proportional to how much the rider is liked)

Without any facts to go on (such as insider knowledge or a bit of insightful intelligent investigation) where I'm cynical is in suspecting commentards of suggesting doping use purely on successful results so they can say 'see, I told you so'.

Its getting a broken record now.

And you're wrong again. The discussion was sensible, involving his illness, interupted career etc. and as far as I recall, no conclusions either way were reached.

Ironically you, in contrast, are a perfect example of commenting without any knowledge - as your last two posts demonstrate.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Though the potential discrepancy predates his time at Sky and he hasn't performed with them. If anything, it enhances Sky's reputation, I reckon.

On the other hand it would show up the futility of Sky's "never doped" pledge requirement. As some had said the requirement would simply make cheats lie, if the pledge has no real teeth (such as clawback provisions on rewards/salaries from the team).

 

[DogTired]

This is largely wrong. Relatively few riders have had the finger of suspicion pointed at them and if you mean Horner, well, USADA have spent a fair bit of time and effort conducting out of competition tests on him, they must be reading the posts on here.

Err - relatively few riders win.

But in hindsight I'd change it to anyone who looked like winning.

 

[DogTired]

And you're wrong again. The discussion was sensible, involving his illness, interupted career etc. and as far as I recall, no conclusions either way were reached.

Ironically you, in contrast, are a perfect example of commenting without any knowledge - as your last two posts demonstrate.

Right first off - pack in the attacking the man not the ball - its all a bit playground and doesnt add anything.

Was the discussion sensible. Nope. Talking of his illness, lets have some facts shall we?

"It is estimated that one in every 200 people will develop glandular fever in any given year. Most cases affect young adults between the ages of 15 to 24..."

90% of people age 35 have mono anti-bodies - you have a 10% chance of NOT being exposed. Locke was 21 when he suffered from it so a lot higher chance than a person chosen at random from the population.

Oh, and is there any reason why an elite athlete may have a relatively suppressed immune system other than for doping? Could there be Monkey??? Is suppression of the immune system in elite athletes a completely unknown phenomena??? Could it take more than 5 seconds using google to find:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20839496

Is there any link from PEDs to the symptom in this thread? Nope. Some PEDs suppress the immune system, some don't.

In terms of innuendo the stuff I'm talking about is similar to:

however I had already made the same observation on the TdF thread about Quintana and Rodiguez being the ones who seemed to be in suspicious territory

Well that proved founded!

I also quite liked this informed exchange:

I presume that's Europcar and Rolland is it.

I thought Voeckler but it is worth noting that there were some questions regarding Rolland's test results post Dauphine.

As to who he means in Europcar, surely it's the performances of Rolland and Voeckler two years ago.

Hell, 2 for the price of one - bargain!

But talking of informed:

But alos consider, there are no "ordinary" riders in that top peloton, every single rider is an exceptional athlete, or they would not be there. Simply filling yourself with chemicals will not turn a donkey into a thoroughbred.

As for me talking without knowledge, you're absolutely right on that score because I have no idea whether Locke has doped. But I have taken the time to research what others say.

So what exactly are your magic qualifications? Actually?

 

[Crackle]

Err - relatively few riders win.

But in hindsight I'd change it to anyone who looked like winning.

I'm not really sure what your point is. Given the sports history it's pretty normal to look at riders with a jaundiced eye. Sayer, Vini Fantini, contador, valverde et al but hardly all. Given this is an internet forum and not CAS, speculation tends to be around what we've seen and read.

With regard to Tiernan Locke, after the initial shock, I'm tending to give him the benefit of the doubt and remain fairly open-minded.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't speculate?

 

[DogTired]

I'm not really sure what your point is. Given the sports history it's pretty normal to look at riders with a jaundiced eye. Sayer, Vini Fantini, contador, valverde et al but hardly all. Given this is an internet forum and not CAS, speculation tends to be around what we've seen and read.

With regard to Tiernan Locke, after the initial shock, I'm tending to give him the benefit of the doubt and remain fairly open-minded.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't speculate?

OK, the point was that theres a lot of typing and polluting the space without at least having a bit of backing. Like you say, speculation tends to be around whats been seen. The speculation is frequently 'Seen someone doing well = doping. Unless we like them'. The previous lazy approach to questioning LA is now a lazy approach to assuming guilt.

Lockes biological passport discrepancies are not public so saying well he's had glandular fever and linking that to PED abuse (a tenuous link) is pretty weak speculation but was phrased strongly. Thats not to say its not an issue but not acknowledging the other side of the argument is fiddle. With less than a minutes worth of effort you can find a reasonable causal link between elite athletics and glandular fever but that takes effort and burning calories from the neck up.

But hey, its a public forum - just as people can throw out 'speculation', accusations and 'facts', so other people can question them and try and get the comments justified. Seriously some of the guff posted here (and I dont mean just this thread) is plain rubbish.

But isnt the real back story how Locke's tests came to be released into the public?

 

[thom]

But isnt the real back story how Locke's tests came to be released into the public?

Had it happened before the UCI presidential vote it might have appeared like a conspiracy to discredit Cookson.
Now it is an embarrassment but who stands to gain apart from the headline writers ?