2015 Rugby World Cup **Potential spoilers**

[Pro Tour Punditry]

Some stupid daffodil has put a meeting in my diary for 2pm - 4pm tomorrow. I do not fecking think so mate.

 

[T4tomo]

i have also done it frame by frame and i can't see it go forward . its done now and would it have changed the outcome ? who knows. i am looking forward to scotland v japan now and am torn on where to stick the tenner ! No it wont go there !!

It doesn't have to go forwards, the ball left contact with his hand so no control and downward pressure so no try. Pretty damn obvious on first viewing, doesn't need 30 reviews in slo mo.


Yes the officials took an age to get the decision right, but at least it was the right decision.

 

[subaqua]

It doesn't have to go forwards, the ball left contact with his hand so no control and downward pressure so no try. Pretty damn obvious on first viewing, doesn't need 30 reviews in slo mo.


Yes the officials took an age to get the decision right, but at least it was the right decision.

show me where in the laws of the game it mentions loss of control . laws 9 and laws 22 will give you a clue where to look .

 

[Aperitif]

show me where in the laws of the game it mentions loss of control . laws 9 and laws 22 will give you a clue where to look .

Law 12 offers this:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

Loss of posession / loss of control?

Good luck to all the teams today - energised by the talk of the past two days, the speculation and, of course, three interesting venues for rugby. Fiji are going to rip Australia to shreds, France will gather another 35 points, and the other match? Oh to have a teleporter to drop me in downtown Gloucester, with a ticket for Kingsholm. It must be one happy, eager place today.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Well, as an impartial observer assisted by cameras, I am siding with Greg. The only thing on the guy's mind was to dab that ball on or behind the line. He was not in control of the ball as touchdown was attempted. I'm sure that, in the referees' opinions, he was not trying to do a quick bounce behind himself before completing said touchdown. No try. Anyone who drops the ball in "the act of scoring" does not want to do that - entertainment or no.

You are Stuart Barnes AICMFP. The nonsense that the pundits talk about "the act of scoring" drives those of us who blow the whistle mental. Jiffy spounts out-of-data RL law concepts and Barnesy just makes things up.

The player does not need to be in control of the ball to score. That's an urbane myth. Almost as much as "He's got to let him stand up" (No he doesn't but the arriving player must stay on his feet).

It is perfectly ok to drop the ball in the act of scoring PROVIDED the ball does not then go forwards.

So had chummy done exactly what he did, but the ball had not gone forwards, then the try would/should have been allowed.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Law 12 offers this:
Loss of posession / loss of control?

Good luck to all the teams today - energised by the talk of the past two days, the speculation and, of course, three interesting venues for rugby. Fiji are going to rip Australia to shreds, France will gather another 35 points, and the other match? Oh to have a teleporter to drop me in downtown Gloucester, with a ticket for Kingsholm. It must be one happy, eager place today.

No. Not the same things at all. The key to a knock on is the ball going forwards and hitting the ground or another player before the original player catches it.

 

[Aperitif]

You are Stuart Barnes AICMFP. The nonsense that the pundits talk about "the act of scoring" drives those of us who blow the whistle mental. Jiffy spounts out-of-data RL law concepts and Barnesy just makes things up.

The player does not need to be in control of the ball to score. That's an urbane myth. Almost as much as "He's got to let him stand up" (No he doesn't but the arriving player must stay on his feet).

It is perfectly ok to drop the ball in the act of scoring PROVIDED the ball does not then go forwards.

So had chummy done exactly what he did, but the ball had not gone forwards, then the try would/should have been allowed.

It shows that rugby referees are a class apart from us mere plebs. Thank you, Greg - I'll never get the hang of this rugby thing..

 

[GrumpyGregry]

It doesn't have to go forwards, the ball left contact with his hand so no control and downward pressure so no try. Pretty damn obvious on first viewing, doesn't need 30 reviews in slo mo.


Yes the officials took an age to get the decision right, but at least it was the right decision.

Good job you are not a TMO or elite level ref...

He does not need control. The ball can leave his hand anytime and he can still score. The ball can even leave his hand and travel forwards so long as he regains possession of it before it touches the ground or another player. In this case it hit the ground before he put his hand back on it, and as it was travelling forwards, no try.

Downward pressure is a red herring and only relevant in situations when the ball is already on the ground and not already being held by a player.

This is what the good book says:

There are two ways a player can ground the ball:

(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive

 

[GrumpyGregry]

It shows that rugby referees are a class apart from us mere plebs. Thank you, Greg - I'll never get the hang of this rugby thing..

Don't worry. Several members of the winning side against Fiji are reported as having had no clue they has secured a bonus point! And poor Sam Burgess clearly doesn't even have a grasp of some of the basic laws; hasn't stopped him getting capped.

(and I had no really clue about anything that applied to open play until I became a ref)

 

[martint235]

You are Stuart Barnes AICMFP. The nonsense that the pundits talk about "the act of scoring" drives those of us who blow the whistle mental. Jiffy spounts out-of-data RL law concepts and Barnesy just makes things up.

The player does not need to be in control of the ball to score. That's an urbane myth. Almost as much as "He's got to let him stand up" (No he doesn't but the arriving player must stay on his feet).

It is perfectly ok to drop the ball in the act of scoring PROVIDED the ball does not then go forwards.

So had chummy done exactly what he did, but the ball had not gone forwards, then the try would/should have been allowed.

But, and without wishing to get too involved, if you are attempting to score a try, you'll be moving forwards most likely. Therefore if you drop the ball, your momentum will carry the ball forward relative to the pitch?

 

[rich p]

A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it

I know 3 parts of píss all about the game but doesn't the above imply control of the ball while grounding?
Holding is something different to just being in contact with, non?
I will, naturally, bow to your deep knowledge!

 

[GrumpyGregry]

But, and without wishing to get too involved, if you are attempting to score a try, you'll be moving forwards most likely. Therefore if you drop the ball, your momentum will carry the ball forward relative to the pitch?

Almost always yes. But not in every circumstance. It is entirely possible to drop the ball backwards (and it doesn't matter if it then bounces forwards) whilst you are moving forwards, as a result say, of a head on tackle. Or having you arms knocked backwards. Fairly easy to apply a force which counters the momentum of the ball.

Determining what actually happens if you drop the ball in the act of scoring in showbiz rugby union is where the TMO comes in.

For games where there is no TMO? The ref makes the call, the players accept that refs, at that level, are fallible, they accept and respect the decision, and the game carries on...

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I know 3 parts of píss all about the game but doesn't the above imply control of the ball while grounding?
Holding is something different to just being in contact with, non?
I will, naturally, bow to your deep knowledge!

It implies many things, not least that you can exert some sort of force or control over the ball but the game is reffed to the Laws, and the conventions surrounding their application, not to their implications.... what matters is, if you drop the ball, and it goes forwards, do you regain possession of the ball before it hits the ground or another player? If yes, play on, if no, scrum down.

 

[rich p]

It implies many things, not least that you can exert some sort of force or control over the ball but the game is reffed to the Laws, and the conventions surrounding their application, not to their implications.... what matters is, if you drop the ball, and it goes forwards, do you regain possession of the ball before it hits the ground or another player? If yes, play on, if no, scrum down.

I see that in terms of this incident and the knock on but I was referring to your bit about ...

The player does not need to be in control of the ball to score. That's an urbane myth

p.s.You and Teef might be urbane, but I am most certainly not!

 

[Aperitif]

Look everyone, Greg's right (even though he isn't because notwithstanding the laws of natural physics becoming part of a referee's determination etc...) and no arguing. Otherwise, you'll get marched back ten metres and before you know it be in that old cabbage patch, 'Politics and Life', or, as it is now known in the professional era 'Superior Cultured People - SCP RFC for short..
And, everyone is always friends in the bar afterwards, proffering drinks to the arbiter at every possible opportunity.