2015 Rugby World Cup **Potential spoilers**

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
As above. Beale and Cooper can play for the team, and don't leak points.

I think the impact of the substitutes has been a weak point for England.
I don't believe Quaid Cooper has ever played for anyone other than QC. Not at international level or at Super Rugby level but coaches recognise it's a trade off against what he brings to a game:vision, imagination, the willingness to go "what if". He doesn't play rugby by numbers in the way that England have
 

BrumJim

Forum Stalwart (won't take the hint and leave...)
I agree with you, in that playing rugby union by numbers is not the way to gain ascendancy in the game. Union is a game where a well organised defence against a well drilled attack will always result in a stalemate. Constant recycling of the ball, fast delivery and dynamic play will start to generate holes as backs face forwards and vice versa. Otherwise, only something unexpected will break a well-drilled defence. In some ways, in an effort to avoid losing tries, England have lost the imagination to score them.

On Black Saturday, Australia showed how fast recycling, and good ball generated by unheralded work at the breakdown, built on the platform of a solid front 5 that prevent you from spending most of the game going backwards, yields good results. So where did England fail? In my mind, in two ways:
1) Lack of plan B when we didn't push Australia backwards at the scrum, and where we lost many scrums due to being pinged for driving in at an angle.
2) In the brief purple patch when it looked like we had Australia rattled, and could bring it back, we lost our heads and ability to think clearly under pressure. We made too many simple mistakes, and ended up handing the initiative back again.

I don't think that Cipriani could have solved either problem. He has shown a lack of plan B and clear thinking in the past (even when sober), and isn't in charge of ball recycling.

However, as a "from the stands expert", I used to believe that Martin Johnson was way too much of a hot head to ever be a good captain and leader, I offer the above opinion with no suggestion of any insight into the game.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
Agreed. I can't remember a time when England had a plan B. Even in 2003 we only hand plan A. It was a very good plan A and it was executed by an exceptional team led not only by Johnson but by players all over the field.

I don't think any one player could have reversed last Saturday. It was as horrible as it was predictable. However I would have liked to see Cipriani given a free rein against Wales when they were walking wounded. I believe we could have put the game out of reach in short order
 
U

User169

Guest
Never mind the Armitage brothers, Nick Abendanon and indeed anyone else who plays in France or elsewhere. Before the tournament, the All Blacks coach was saying that it was simply insane not to include at Steffon Armitage in the squad.

Imagine the Welsh football team saying that they weren't going to select Gareth Bale because he plays in Spain...

Imagine the New Zealand rugby selectors saying they weren't going to select overseas-based players. Oh!
 
U

User169

Guest
NZ bent their rules a few years ago when Dan Carter went to play in France. They're a fairly pragmatic lot

They let Piutau and Slade go this year.

Edit: Thinking about it, I don't think Carter was selected for the All Blacks whilst at Perpignan.

I don't much like the rule, but I think it would have been a bit harsh on those that turned down big money contracts to see Armitage getting selected. I think the only exception ever made was for Wilkinson, but he was already in France when the rule came in.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
Personally I think it's nuts. Armitage is the best player in Europe (apart from when Nick Abendanon is) and they're both English. Plus for Armitage there's no real competition for his place in the England squad. All it would have taken was a "yes I'll pick you" from Lancaster and he would temporarily have been playing for Bath so the rule wouldn't have mattered
 

gavgav

Legendary Member
@Rickshaw Phil and me enjoying Canada v Romania at Leicester. The game hadn't started yet, hence the empty seats!!
image.jpeg
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
The formula for winning rugby.

Properly execute simple things, at speed. Properly execute simple things at a higher speed than your opposite number.

Get 15 guys doing that and it is game over.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Really? Or do you mean in the establishment? Leaving out the one player we have with an ounce of imagination was criminal to me
He is rugby's George Best/Paul Gascoine. He wastes his own talent and the opportunities, on and off the park.

I'd play him. But I still want to slap him.
 
U

User482

Guest
In what is very much a team game, a player who has a history of upsetting people in the squad, who tends to leak more points that he generates (even if he generates more than anyone else) and who is likely to get hit by a bus at any moment, is more of a liability than an asset. A truly great team will put everything on the line for each other. Rugby is a brutal game, and even more so at test level. Any player that routinely upsets that is unlikely to be part of a cup-winning squad.

I'm not so sure... Pietersen would never have been dropped from the cricket team if he was still scoring runs.
 

BrumJim

Forum Stalwart (won't take the hint and leave...)
I don't think you can compare Cricket and Football to Rugby. Whilst they are all team sports, both cricket and football can afford to have a shaky maverick in the team, to provide that inspirational moment which provides the winning goal/runs, whilst the rest of the team make it count. In rugby, that maverick has to be as good in defence as he/she is in attack, otherwise the points gained count for nothing.

Against Cipriani, I offer Geordan Murphy. Again, likely to pull something out of nothing, but not the strongest defence in the game, but his commitment, particularly under the high ball, just takes your breath away. I've seen talented unpredictable players such as GM, Johnny Wilkinson, Rory Underwood et al put in forward-esque tackles that made me wince, and either stopped a certain score or changed the momentum in a moment. I can't think of any moment where Cipriani has done this.
 
U

User482

Guest
I don't think you can compare Cricket and Football to Rugby. Whilst they are all team sports, both cricket and football can afford to have a shaky maverick in the team, to provide that inspirational moment which provides the winning goal/runs, whilst the rest of the team make it count. In rugby, that maverick has to be as good in defence as he/she is in attack, otherwise the points gained count for nothing.

Against Cipriani, I offer Geordan Murphy. Again, likely to pull something out of nothing, but not the strongest defence in the game, but his commitment, particularly under the high ball, just takes your breath away. I've seen talented unpredictable players such as GM, Johnny Wilkinson, Rory Underwood et al put in forward-esque tackles that made me wince, and either stopped a certain score or changed the momentum in a moment. I can't think of any moment where Cipriani has done this.

My point is not about Cipriani specifically, but that a maverick who can be abrasive should play, provided he delivers on the pitch. It's up to the management to sort out the personnel issues.
 
Top Bottom