20mph - latest thoughts?

[Drago]

Do the Parks Police still exist, or did they get absorbed into the Met?

 

[jonny jeez]

I've been told, off the record, that the 20mph zones are put in place so that drivers will slow down to 30mph...

I thought that this was commonly accepted knowledge.

The enforcement of 20mph is irrelevant. Its part of a change management process, designed to bring our perception of sensible speed down. If you are doing 30in a 20, then the authorities have probably achieved their objective for the price of a few signs.

 

[mjr]

The enforcement of 20mph is irrelevant. Its part of a change management process, designed to bring our perception of sensible speed down. If you are doing 30in a 20, then the authorities have probably achieved their objective for the price of a few signs.

What is that price, though? Does anyone know how it was going to cost Manchester a reported £670ish million?

After experiencing 30km/h zones on mainland Europe, I'd welcome actual enforced 20mph in most residential and shopping areas here.

 

[smutchin]

I would hope that the real impact of 20 zones will be felt in the long term. It might be unrealistic to expect people to change their behaviour overnight, but reinforcing the message that "20's plenty" might gradually sink in.

It would be nice to have the message backed up with meaningful enforcement but I suspect that's wishful thinking with police budgets already stretched to breaking point.

 

[jonny jeez]

What is that price, though? Does anyone know how it was going to cost Manchester a reported £670ish million?

After experiencing 30km/h zones on mainland Europe, I'd welcome actual enforced 20mph in most residential and shopping areas here.

Probably because Manchester chose to deploy a process of open tendering via OJEC which resulted in all manner of chance your arm builders attempting to win the bid with a wildly underestimated budget, only to vary the contract later to include all manner of professional consultants and specialists.


To lay some tarmac and fit a few curb stones.

Same reason it cost us £700 million to put up a tent at the Blackwall tunnel

 

[classic33]

I'm in favour of speed cameras to deal with the fools. Most of the streets that I'm speaking of will be places like terraced streets with cars parked along one or both sides, reducing it to give-and-take single track, or with blind corners, where doing more the 20mph is foolish anyway, so it's only the determinedly anti-social or reckless who still do it.

I'm not keen on changing the law to apply them to cycles because I believe the existing laws banning wanton and furious cycling deals with the rare exceptions of unsafe speed adequately and it's a tiny tiny number of cases. Some streets where motorists should be below 20mph due to it being narrow or restricted visibility would be OK at 25mph on a narrower cycle with a higher eye level... but even that's going to be a tiny rare exceptional group that actually do it. Almost all will keep below the 20mph even then.

You want the law enforcing, only not to your chosen form of road vehicle. You want to be able to go as fast as you want/are able.

 

[Drago]

The flip side of neighbourhood speed enforcement is that its normal for over half of those fingered to be locals or residents, and its not unusual to catch those very people doing the complaining.

A friend of mine once caught a chap speeding who was the head of the local residents action group against speeding, and I once monitored a group of speed watch volunteers who were leaving their training session and every single one was speeding through the 40 zone as they departed.

 

[classic33]

The flip side of neighbourhood speed enforcement is that its normal for over half of those fingered to be locals or residents, and its not unusual to catch those very people doing the complaining.

A friend of mine once caught a chap speeding who was the head of the local residents action group against speeding, and I once monitored a group of speed watch volunteers who were leaving their training session and every single one was speeding through the 40 zone as they departed.

Local mp got caught and stopped, having just left a meeting about speeding in the area.

 

[NorthernDave]

On the subject of applying speed limits to cyclists, how would that work?
As we've already established, there is no legal requirement to have a speedometer so how would the cyclist know how fast they were going?
Or is it to be made mandatory that every bike must be fitted with one, in addition to a bell and reflectors?

There are a couple of hills near here that are subject to a 20mph limit that a seven year old on a ratty old BMX could easily exceed just by freewheeling down them. And that's before we get to the subject of exactly who will enforce any new laws.

It's simply unworkable.

 

[martint235]

On the subject of applying speed limits to cyclists, how would that work?
As we've already established, there is no legal requirement to have a speedometer so how would the cyclist know how fast they were going?
Or is it to be made mandatory that every bike must be fitted with one, in addition to a bell and reflectors?

There are a couple of hills near here that are subject to a 20mph limit that a seven year old on a ratty old BMX could easily exceed just by freewheeling down them. And that's before we get to the subject of exactly who will enforce any new laws.

It's simply unworkable.

Various traffic laws are currently unworkable. However first agree the principle then work on the enforcement. If 'how do we enforce it' dictates your decision making I think the cause is lost

 

[classic33]

Assuming that the rest of the traffic is keeping to the 20 mph speed limit, should you find yourself travelling faster than them, you're doing more than 20 mph.

 

[martint235]

Assuming that the rest of the traffic is keeping to the 20 mph speed limit, should you find yourself travelling faster than them, you're doing more than 20 mph.

Careful there. You're starting to introduce common sense and rationality

 

[hatler]

Assuming that the rest of the traffic is keeping to the 20 mph speed limit, should you find yourself travelling faster than them, you're doing more than 20 mph.

I would contend that that is a fairly unsafe assumption.

 

[mjr]

You want the law enforcing, only not to your chosen form of road vehicle. You want to be able to go as fast as you want/are able.

That's not what I wrote, fibber. I want the law enforcing, but not changing in the suggested way. I want to continue with the current reasonable approach, even though it sometimes means I can't go as fast as I want.

 

[mjr]

Careful there. You're starting to introduce common sense and rationality

More like lies and wishful thinking.