20mph limits unenforceable?

[fudgepanda]

I was going by this page
http://www.wmsafetycameras.co.uk/cameras_work.php?cameramovie=RedLight
They definitely say sensors 'in' the road which would be inductive I think. But I am open to being corrected

The term "Safety cameras" is used above. In Greater Manchester the 20 limit couldn't be enforced by those involved in the Safety Camera Partnership. Fixed Gatso cameras aren't appropriate for most 20mph roads and the kind of equipment (usually LTI 20/20 laser devices with 500mm Tamron lens) that are used from the pavement by TPCSOs don't really work at distances of below 50 -100 metres, which again renders them unsuitable. The only real chance of prosecuting drivers is if they're followed by a Police car or bike. If any driver was clocked in a 20 zone by one of those they'd have to be drunk or certifiably insane not to see a big white 4X4 with blue lights on the roof, in addition to which, the Cops usually like to follow a vehicle for about one third of a mile at an illegal speed which increases the chance the following vehicle will be spotted giving the driver time to slow down.

 

[fudgepanda]

Why should that make the limit unenforceable? You can be done for drink driving despite there being no legal requirement to carry a breath alcohol tester at all.

You do in France. I know we're not in France, but where one Euro state leads, the others often follow. Having said that, if you are driving then the best thing is to simply not drink alcohol at all, that way you can't be over the limit. However, it is a little difficult to drive somewhere if you don't move at all.

 

[buggi]

it isn't illegal for a car to stop in an ASL so i fail to see how they are going to treat that the same as running a red light. sounds to me like the cop doesn't know what he's talking about, and it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[dellzeqq]

it isn't illegal for a car to stop in an ASL so i fail to see how they are going to treat that the same as running a red light. sounds to me like the cop doesn't know what he's talking about, and it wouldn't be the first time.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/28397.aspx

the cops are enforcing ASLs in a big way down here - the going rate is sixty quid. I can only imagine that TfL has got it's Orders in place.

 

[Dan B]

Having said that, if you are driving then the best thing is to simply not drink alcohol at all, that way you can't be over the limit

And if you're unsure whether you're exceeding the speed limit, the best thing is simply to slow down until you're sure you're not. For most people this will not involve coming to a complete halt, and a reasonable argument could be made that anyone unaware whether they are e.g. exceeding walking pace while on their bike probably *should* be required to come to a complete halt ...

 

[StuartG]

...the cops are enforcing ASLs in a big way down here - the going rate is sixty quid. I can only imagine that TfL has got it's Orders in place.

Not in SE26 sadly. The council just put in a spanking new set of ASLs. These are probably technically illegal for cyclists as there is no dashed entry point. But this has stopped cars on the very day after the BBC did a big thing on ASLs blocking the ASL two abreast EVERY time I went down there leaving me a bit exposed at the front. Thankfully the traffic turning into the road blocks the Yellow Hatch so stopping fast getaways taking you out. Doh!

I have a idea for a new FPN. Any police officer can stop and ask you 10 questions from the Highway Code (just like when you took your driving test). Get less than five and its a £30 fine and a re-test within 7 days. Fail to get 7 out of 10 on that one (as you had time for a quick revision) and its a £90 HC training course. Doesn't guarantee better driving and riding but at least it will be better informed driving and riding.

Watchafink?

 

[Hill Wimp]

Why should that make the limit unenforceable? You can be done for drink driving despite there being no legal requirement to carry a breath alcohol tester at all.

Yes but you get breath tested back at the Police Station then if you are over you get "done" as you say which is actually charged.

 

[buggi]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/28397.aspx

the cops are enforcing ASLs in a big way down here - the going rate is sixty quid. I can only imagine that TfL has got it's Orders in place.

That's weird... same organisation difference advice (skip to 0:54); it states both, that crossing the first and second stop line you are liable to a fine, but that if the lights change and you can't safely stop before the first line, you must stop before the second. Advice is confusing and contradictory, and gives any driver mitigation. They can just say "i couldn't safely stop before the first line so i stopped at the second"

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbuo-rney-Q

 

[glasgowcyclist]

What I hadn't heard is that 20mph limits are legally impossible to enforce.

<snipped>

I would be interested to know if anyone has heard anything about the above points and can confim/deny.

They're enforceable.

"Twenty's Plenty signs have recently been installed on the A72 outside Kingsland Primary in Peebles after a campaign by concerned parents.
Traffic police set up a hand-held speed trap near the school gates on Monday.
The first vehicle they pulled over for allegedly breaking the limit was a bus carrying pupils on its way to nearby Peebles High School."​

GC

 

[Longshot]

Vehicles first used on or after 1st April 1984 the speedometer should be capable of indicating the speed in miles per hour and kilometres per hour. Vehicles may instead comply with EC Regulation (Community Directive) 97/39 or ECE Reg 39.
These directives stipulate the markings, graduations of the speedometer and refer to 75/443/EEC which specifies the tolerances.
The indicated speed must never be less than the true speed (it must read exact or high) and between 40km/h and 120km/h the error must not exceed 10% + 2.5 m.p.h. high (true speed/10 + 4kph).
This means at a true speed of 25mph or 40km/h the speedometer may read 40/10+4 = 8km/h or 5mph high = 30mph indicated.

Apologies for the threadjack but this point has always interested me.

Given that very few people could tell the difference between 30 and say 35 mph by eye whilst driving, how would a driver suspect that his speedo was inaccurate? The answer, I guess, is to ensure that it is tested/calibrated on a regular basis, but how regular would be deemed reasonable in court? Is it a standard servicing item? It's a law we're all aware of but, in reality, has it ever been tested in court and how would a judge reasonably look at the responsibility issue?

 

[Firestorm]

Apologies for the threadjack but this point has always interested me.

Given that very few people could tell the difference between 30 and say 35 mph by eye whilst driving, how would a driver suspect that his speedo was inaccurate? The answer, I guess, is to ensure that it is tested/calibrated on a regular basis, but how regular would be deemed reasonable in court? Is it a standard servicing item? It's a law we're all aware of but, in reality, has it ever been tested in court and how would a judge reasonably look at the responsibility issue?

Most speedos these days are electronic and dont go out of calibration.

 

[CopperCyclist]

I think the 20 mph limits must be legally enforceable as there is a section on the endorsable tickets specifically for "exceeding a 20 mph limit".

However, that said this question was raised recently at work (not by me) and the given answer s that ACPO (association of chief police officers) guidelines are for police not to enforce 20 limits. This doesn't mean one would necessarily fail if brought to court, but does make it very unlikely to happen.

 

[Firestorm]

Obviously , only where the signs are circular with a white background and red edge and are at regular intervals.

 

[StuartG]

... the given answer s that ACPO (association of chief police officers) guidelines are for police not to enforce 20 limits.

Which is why the measurable success to date is due to sleeping policemen rather than recalcitrant ones.

 

[StuartG]

Which is rather sad, as no one likes the sleeping ones.

Yes - I really wish Mr Pickles would stand up for the law abiding road user and remove the need by removing the testicles of random serial speeding offenders and chief constables pour encourager les autres.*

*A more effective deterrence might be considered.