A blow for Rugby Union....

[Tripster]

This was the chap I referred to earlier that was on the TV News yesterday:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...at-i-know-now-id-have-been-a-lot-more-careful

Revealing in a number of ways....

Also:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...interview-rugby-union-dementia-special-report

But does it not say in your original post that without a brain dissection it’s not possible to definitively say the blows to the head caused there dementia ? I don’t doubt it probably contributed as they are young but even children have been found to suffer. It’s hard to believe that they would ‘have been more careful’ had they known...... Dan Carter on the attack, I have the opportunity to smash him and snuff out the All Blacks attack.... 80,000 screaming supporters....Cauldron atmosphere.... Nope, I will step aside as this may result in future brain issues if I get my hit wrong..... Off you go Dan, step right through

 

[Rocky]

Rugby League will have a lot to answer for then

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjLC_vqhfZ0

I’ll raise you this.....

View: https://youtu.be/o58stoJJ5No

 

[Tripster]

Well, maybe, maybe not.
Here's Steve Thompson from the original article:

“You see us lifting the World Cup and I can see me there jumping around. But I can’t remember it,” Thompson said. “I’d rather have just had a normal life. I’m just normal. Some people go for the big lights, whereas I never wanted that. Would I do it again? No, I wouldn’t. I can’t remember it. I’ve got no feelings about it.”
...
Thompson would not want his own children to play the game “the way it is at the moment” and that he regrets ever taking it up himself.

And do you think that response is not expected as he is mounting a case against the RU ? Not going to publicly say the opposite, kinda undermines his case somewhat.

 

[Tripster]

I’ll raise you this.....

View: https://youtu.be/o58stoJJ5No

Without watching it all I knew it was Kelvin bloody legend. Lee Crooks in that video, another Nutter. Dean Sampson too, played against him. Oh the good old days of RL

 

[Tripster]

View: https://youtu.be/BBamiZ6IQj0

 

[Tripster]

View: https://youtu.be/iXNZ24_VIxI


Maybe its right the shoulder charge went, maybe not but it did make for a great game

 

[matticus]

But does it not say in your original post that without a brain dissection it’s not possible to definitively say the blows to the head caused there dementia ? I don’t doubt it probably contributed as they are young but even children have been found to suffer

Well that's medicine for you - there usually are several causative factors. Look at diabetes - you can't say excess sugar is harmless just because people still get diabetes with healthy diets. Or how about non-smokers that get lung cancer??

 

[matticus]

It’s hard to believe that they would ‘have been more careful’ had they known...... Dan Carter on the attack, I have the opportunity to smash him and snuff out the All Blacks attack.... 80,000 screaming supporters....Cauldron atmosphere.... Nope, I will step aside as this may result in future brain issues if I get my hit wrong..... Off you go Dan, step right through

You're suggesting that no athletes look after themselves ... clearly bollox. Of course they overcome caution/fear more than someone with less at stake, but they're still human. They can change the habits of a lifetime if it means avoiding the SIn Bin! So I'm sure the threat of dementia at 45 would have some effect on behaviour.

EDIT: I've seen plenty of elite rugby players wimp out of tackles, even when injury was unlikely. It's human nature.

 

[byegad]

It was
In all honest League is a poor relation to Union now. Union was dire when I was playing. Big fat beer bellies and kick and chase stuff. League was fast, entertaining and full of athletes. It failed to expand and grow and Union is a bigger spectacle, played worldwide and the players are now superb athletes. Hate to say it but I would stick with Union.( That’s Rugby Union not the European one)

Policing the a
high tackles and attacks to the head are an obvious positive. I am not so sure about the shoulder charge. Unless it’s directed at the head then I feel it’s part of the game. A tackler can get his body position all wrong and his head positioned on the wrong side of the attackers body. His head collides with a hip, a knee, or is impacted into the ground as the attacker falls onto him. What happens then ? Penalise the tackler for crap execution ? Penalise the attacker for failing to preempt the crap body position and take evasive action and not land on his bonce ? It’s endless

I think the point made on BBC this morning was that 80% of the impacts take place in training. And much of those could be avoided.

 

[Tripster]

Well that's medicine for you - there usually are several causative factors. Look at diabetes - you can't say excess sugar is harmless just because people still get diabetes with healthy diets. Or how about non-smokers that get lung cancer??

You have nicely made my point for me. Several factors, hence the RFU not to blame

You're suggesting that no athletes look after themselves ... clearly bollox. Of course they overcome caution/fear more than someone with less at stake, but they're still human. They can change the habits of a lifetime if it means avoiding the SIn Bin! So I'm sure the threat of dementia at 45 would have some effect on behaviour.

EDIT: I've seen plenty of elite rugby players wimp out of tackles, even when injury was unlikely. It's human nature.

I’m guessing you never played ? Your statement is true bollocks because a pro player puts his body on the line every game. What I am saying is I do not 100% believe he would have changed his tackles, runs at the line, ruck and maul had he known it was a possibility. The young don’t look at life after sport.... your last statement doesn’t warrant an answer,

Young players of sport in my day and today use to call cuts, black eyes, broken nose a battle scare. A bit of sympathy with the ladies in the clubhouse afterwards. The bigger the cut the better the battle. Phrases like” pain is just weakness leaving the body“ all sorts of macho crap. If I had known I would end up with several internal stitches holding the layers of skin together and 10 external keeping my eyebrow from falling in my eye, would I have not made the tackle... “looked after myself and wimped out” as you say? Christ no! It was all I lived for at that age, playing on a Saturday with my best mates. Do I look back now and think I wish I could breath out of BOTH nostrils and my nose didn’t bend round corners ? No, because I loved my time. And I was amateur. Multiply that by 1000 and you get somewhere near to how a Pro must feel. So no, my statement is not bollocks because I actually played as a kid and nothing would get any of us off a field. The passion in places like Siddal, Wigan St Pats, Hull Dockers, Skirlaugh to name a few was ten fold.
The player would not have changed a thing about his career but now with the onset of dementia he states differently and blames the RFU
Earlier you said my opinions are based on personal experience... like a lot of what humans think and feel in life. I don’t doubt some of what you say is true but you dismiss all else as unproven. My claims are about the players attitude to playing and turning out of a weekend, not if dementia is solely caused by blows to his head, and I dispute he would have played differently based on how I and everyone I played with and against and all manner of interviews with pros state.

Edit: Owen Farrell changed his aggressive play now he knows all this head injury stuff ? Or the same passionate, aggressive borderline player ?

 

[swee'pea99]

if the RFU were aware and did nothing about it, then they may have liability

Surely this is the nub. If they knew and kept it from those with a need to know, that was irresponsible at best and arguably an actionable abdication of responsibilities which are rightfully theirs. Surely doing what you can to safeguard the health and wellbeing of the 'community' you claim to represent/lead is an inescapable duty for anyone who takes on the role.

But you have to be realistic. They can't make the sport safe. Big people hurtling around at speed and crashing into each other is not a safe scenario. What they can and should do, it seems to me, is two things: first, be honest, open and as informative as they can about the risks, and second, continue incrementally adjusting the rules/guidance to refs. You'll never eliminate risk, but you should certainly be looking to minimise it as much as you can without changing the nature of the game. (Rugby wouldn't miss high tackles, but it would miss Gary Owens, tho' they come with risk attached.)

Once you've done that, you've done your job. The rest is down to the players.

 

[Tripster]

Surely this is the nub. If they knew and kept it from those with a need to know, that was irresponsible at best and arguably an actionable abdication of responsibilities which are rightfully theirs. Surely doing what you can to safeguard the health and wellbeing of the 'community' you claim to represent/lead is an inescapable duty for anyone who takes on the role.

But you have to be realistic. They can't make the sport safe. Big people hurtling around at speed and crashing into each other is not a safe scenario. What they can and should do, it seems to me, is two things: first, be honest, open and as informative as they can about the risks, and second, continue incrementally adjusting the rules/guidance to refs. You'll never eliminate risk, but you should certainly be looking to minimise it as much as you can without changing the nature of the game. (Rugby wouldn't miss high tackles, but it would miss Gary Owens, tho' they come with risk attached.)

Once you've done that, you've done your job. The rest is down to the players.

I don’t think they hid anything from anyone and knocks to the head have long been known to cause damage. The real issue is taking a sports governing body to court for something you willingly did yourself. No one ever forces a player onto a field. They can walk away at anytime and pursue another career. Safe guarding players is one thing but as you say in your post, huge men & women hurtling towards each other at Olympic athlete speeds is always going to cause injury and be dangerous. weigh up the risk, is it worth it in your opinion, then play or not play

 

[jowwy]

Well, maybe, maybe not.
Here's Steve Thompson from the original article:

“You see us lifting the World Cup and I can see me there jumping around. But I can’t remember it,” Thompson said. “I’d rather have just had a normal life. I’m just normal. Some people go for the big lights, whereas I never wanted that. Would I do it again? No, I wouldn’t. I can’t remember it. I’ve got no feelings about it.”
...
Thompson would not want his own children to play the game “the way it is at the moment” and that he regrets ever taking it up himself.

so why did he come out of retirement to play again???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/16018570

this says he hurt his neck, by hitting a scrum machine

 

[Tripster]

so why did he come out of retirement to play again???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/16018570

this says he hurt his neck, by hitting a scrum machine

This is the attitude of a professional player, the one that @matticus says is Bollocks sums up nicely what aI have been saying about how a pro sportsman thinks, acts and behaves when playing.....

Thompson returned an insurance payout of around £500,000 when he returned to action after his last neck injury, having received a second medical opinion that cleared him to play again.

Yep matticus, he really looked after his self and changed his habits of a lifetime.......the drive to play is far greater than anything but now he is regretting his decisions and potential consequences but that’s not the RFU.

 

[jowwy]

This is the attitude of a professional player, the one that @matticus says is Bollocks sums up nicely what aI have been saying about how a pro sportsman thinks, acts and behaves when playing.....

Thompson returned an insurance payout of around £500,000 when he returned to action after his last neck injury, having received a second medical opinion that cleared him to play again.

Yep matticus, he really looked after his self and changed his habits of a lifetime.......the drive to play is far greater than anything but now he is regretting his decisions and potential consequences but that’s not the RFU.

also both injuries were to his neck and not to the head