A question on political correctness.

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winjim

Smash the cistern
Wot winjim said.

If anyone ever asks "is this politically correct" they are already on the wrong track because they are judging against some artificial supposed standard (and one created to make it easier to criticise at that).

Substitute "is this polite", "respectful", or "helpful" if you actually want to know the answer. They are existing standards that we are all familiar with and will give the same answer.

I'm actually quite insulted. Everyone knows that the snowmen were Hitlers paymasters and responsible for the deaths of millions of non snowmen in the ovens.



It would respectfully disagree. Political correctness exists, and refusing to acknowledge it does not make it any less so. There are reasonable and worthy objections and there is political correctness, which takes things beyond the limits of the desirable or sensible.

An example. Some time circa the turn of the century the police were told by ACPO to stop using the term 'brainstorm' in training and meetings. Apparently, it was offensive to people with epilepsy. When queried it would seem that no one with epilepsy had complained to ACPO over the matter, and even the Epilepsy Society stated that it was utter nonsense.

Another example. At about the same time a lot of large government organisations such as the Feds, NHS etc, were under pressure not promise the term "nitty gritty". It has connotations with the slave trade, and is therefore offensive, we were told. Radio 4 got wind of this and did an entite programme on the matter. They followed a leading lexicographer as he researched the matter, and he could find no recorded use of the term prior to the late 1920s. Therefore, it could not possibly have anything g to do with the slave trade.

Yet large organisations employed Diversity Advisors who merrily cracked down on the use of such language.

And that is political correctness. Someone, somewhere, usually unrelated in any way to the matter at hand, taking it upon themselves to create rules and procedures which are inevitably unsolicited by the party they are supposed to protect from offence, and utterly nonsensical.
I think political correctness comes from wanting to appear to be doing the right thing rather than actually thinking about what the right thing might be. Think about the word 'politics' or the phrases 'playing politics' or 'political expediency' with all their connotations of deceit and self-interest, dishonesty and trickery, power games and ruthlessness.

Another example in the manner of Drago's above was use of the term 'niggardly' which was objected to by someone in local government in the States. The word has absolutely no racial connotations or derivation whatsoever yet somebody felt they had to resign for using it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm
 

raleighnut

Legendary Member
It's no wonder the country is in such a mess.:wacko:
Not as much of a mess as the UK. :whistle:
 

Globalti

Legendary Member
Many years ago in the King's Arms in Askrigg my brother and I and a couple of climbing friends had a few beers and got into singing a few traditional songs, as people still sometimes did in pubs in the seventies. We started a traditional Irish playground song (I'm starting to sound pretentious here, I know) and suddenly a bloke appeared from the next booth, red in the face, and shouted: "Stop singing that song! It advocates cruelty to children!" Turned out he was in the pub with a bunch of trendy lefty socially-aware types from some university social sciences course, the kind of people you can't say anything to without fear of causing offence. Censorship boils my wee so we carried on singing whatever we liked.
 
(polite cough) I thought that the very mention of ****stmas was supposed to be pretty uncool these days.
I thought it was being renamed Winterval, or some such bobbins?

Wot winjim said.

If anyone ever asks "is this politically correct" they are already on the wrong track because they are judging against some artificial supposed standard (and one created to make it easier to criticise at that).

Substitute "is this polite", "respectful", or "helpful" if you actually want to know the answer. They are existing standards that we are all familiar with and will give the same answer.

Treat people as you would wish to be treated, add in politeness, & common-sense!
This way, a lot of the PC is covered

(not that there's a lot of common sense about now!)

An example. Some time circa the turn of the century the police were told by ACPO to stop using the term 'brainstorm' in training and meetings. Apparently, it was offensive to people with epilepsy. When queried it would seem that no one with epilepsy had complained to ACPO over the matter, and even the Epilepsy Society stated that it was utter nonsense.

Yet large organisations employed Diversity Advisors who merrily cracked down on the use of such language.

And that is political correctness. Someone, somewhere, usually unrelated in any way to the matter at hand, taking it upon themselves to create rules and procedures which are inevitably unsolicited by the party they are supposed to protect from offence, and utterly nonsensical.

I believe the 'brain-storming' phrase was dropped, officially, by the NHS about the same time



Dilbert was right too
Dilbert. Management.jpg


I took this in November 2007, according to the file-data
And, up to press, I've managed to avoid any similar course (Top Floor)
Now I know I've poked Fate, with a pointy stick, & it will happen
Training!.JPG



View attachment 483273

You could always take a leaf out of Bill Watterson's book.

Ahh, Calvin
What a kid!!!!

I wanted to do something similar when building with daughter, when she was a lot younger, but was advised not to by Senior Management
(ie; wife said I'd get no tea, if I did...……………….)
 

swansonj

Guru
.....
It would respectfully disagree. Political correctness exists, and refusing to acknowledge it does not make it any less so. There are reasonable and worthy objections and there is political correctness, which takes things beyond the limits of the desirable or sensible.

An example. Some time circa the turn of the century the police were told by ACPO to stop using the term 'brainstorm' in training and meetings. Apparently, it was offensive to people with epilepsy. When queried it would seem that no one with epilepsy had complained to ACPO over the matter, and even the Epilepsy Society stated that it was utter nonsense.

Another example. At about the same time a lot of large government organisations such as the Feds, NHS etc, were under pressure not promise the term "nitty gritty". It has connotations with the slave trade, and is therefore offensive, we were told. Radio 4 got wind of this and did an entite programme on the matter. They followed a leading lexicographer as he researched the matter, and he could find no recorded use of the term prior to the late 1920s. Therefore, it could not possibly have anything g to do with the slave trade.

Yet large organisations employed Diversity Advisors who merrily cracked down on the use of such language.

And that is political correctness. Someone, somewhere, usually unrelated in any way to the matter at hand, taking it upon themselves to create rules and procedures which are inevitably unsolicited by the party they are supposed to protect from offence, and utterly nonsensical.

Seriously (and, I hope, equally respectfully)?

I think you and I are more agreed than you realise.

Consider the process. Phrase X has been in common use for donkeys' years without most of its users giving much attention to its origins or implications. Then people start asking questions about whether X might be hurtful to certain people, or whether X might be entrenching or promoting prejudiced attitudes. So X gets examined in a nebulous sort of way over a period of time. Collectively, we may decide that X is fine, no-one is being hurt, and we carry on using it. Or we may realise that X is in fact hurtful or prejudicial, and we stop using it. That, it seems to me and I suspect it seems to you, is as it should be. I continue to use the phrase "brainstorm". I have stopped using the phrase that is the diminutive of Pakistani; I meant no conscious hurt by it when I used it (just as I'm sure Prince Harry didn't) but I've come to realise it does convey hurt and prejudice so I've stopped using it, as I presume Prince Harry has, and as I'm going to assume you have, if you ever did use it.

We both agree that sometimes people are over-zealous and try to impose standards that go too far. It makes sense that there should be a word to describe that phenomenon. The reason I prefer to avoid "political correctness" is that PC has acquired a much wider meaning than merely the phenomenon you describe of the NHS or the Police trying to ban "brainstorm". It's become code for "I can't be arsed to think about whether my language is hurtful to other people, and I really don't want to have to think about it because the people who would be hurt are probably people I don't care about very much anyway so why should I care, and thinking through this sort of thing, let alone changing my vocabulary, sounds like hard work, and it's just more comfortable if I can pretend that it's all laughable excess, then I don't have to take responsibility myself for the effect of my own words and actions".

Which is why I say, let's junk "political correctness" and replace it with "politeness". It works quite well. The following are quite acceptable in the right context:
"It's politeness gone mad"
"Some people take politeness too far"

On the other hand, the following sound a bit odd:
"I don't believe in all this politeness rubbish"
"No-one's going to tell me to be polite"
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Seriously (and, I hope, equally respectfully)?

I think you and I are more agreed than you realise.

Consider the process. Phrase X has been in common use for donkeys' years without most of its users giving much attention to its origins or implications. Then people start asking questions about whether X might be hurtful to certain people, or whether X might be entrenching or promoting prejudiced attitudes. So X gets examined in a nebulous sort of way over a period of time. Collectively, we may decide that X is fine, no-one is being hurt, and we carry on using it. Or we may realise that X is in fact hurtful or prejudicial, and we stop using it. That, it seems to me and I suspect it seems to you, is as it should be. I continue to use the phrase "brainstorm". I have stopped using the phrase that is the diminutive of Pakistani; I meant no conscious hurt by it when I used it (just as I'm sure Prince Harry didn't) but I've come to realise it does convey hurt and prejudice so I've stopped using it, as I presume Prince Harry has, and as I'm going to assume you have, if you ever did use it.

We both agree that sometimes people are over-zealous and try to impose standards that go too far. It makes sense that there should be a word to describe that phenomenon. The reason I prefer to avoid "political correctness" is that PC has acquired a much wider meaning than merely the phenomenon you describe of the NHS or the Police trying to ban "brainstorm". It's become code for "I can't be arsed to think about whether my language is hurtful to other people, and I really don't want to have to think about it because the people who would be hurt are probably people I don't care about very much anyway so why should I care, and thinking through this sort of thing, let alone changing my vocabulary, sounds like hard work, and it's just more comfortable if I can pretend that it's all laughable excess, then I don't have to take responsibility myself for the effect of my own words and actions".

Which is why I say, let's junk "political correctness" and replace it with "politeness". It works quite well. The following are quite acceptable in the right context:
"It's politeness gone mad"
"Some people take politeness too far"

On the other hand, the following sound a bit odd:
"I don't believe in all this politeness rubbish"
"No-one's going to tell me to be polite"
As someone living with epilepsy, who'd rather be open about it and not have to hide it(when possible) at work. The fact that one place stopped using the phrase brainstorm, because someone was open about living with it, and sent an e-mail to the entire floor, myself included, saying it was no longer acceptable wording to use and why created more problems. It became a case of why, what are we supposed to use now?

They never seemed willing to explain, nor allow me to explain why there were times when "normal activities" couldn't be done by me. Making it worse for me than if they'd simply been honest and not try to frighten anyone else.

@tyred, draw your snowman as you remember making them. You can't put a robin on now for similar reasons. Fear of upsetting someone.
 

Kempstonian

Has the memory of a goldfish
Location
Bedford
As someone living with epilepsy, who'd rather be open about it and not have to hide it(when possible) at work. The fact that one place stopped using the phrase brainstorm, because someone was open about living with it, and sent an e-mail to the entire floor, myself included, saying it was no longer acceptable wording to use and why created more problems. It became a case of why, what are we supposed to use now?

They never seemed willing to explain, nor allow me to explain why there were times when "normal activities" couldn't be done by me. Making it worse for me than if they'd simply been honest and not try to frighten anyone else.

@tyred, draw your snowman as you remember making them. You can't put a robin on now for similar reasons. Fear of upsetting someone.
I'm curious. Who would be upset by seeing a robin?
 
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