mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
Much less naughty than claiming that using it as so defined is some sort of attempt to "redefine" it.
Screwup.
accidents can happen
- Thread starter jonny jeez
- Start date
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Profpointy
Legendary Member
I wasn't intending to claim that the no-blame sense was a wrong meaning per se or that the act-of-god accident didn't exist. I was however asserting that it doesn't usually mean no-blame in the context of a road accident, industrial accident or whatever. Moreover it is totally wrong to maintain the with blame meaning is incorrect
mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
You may think it's "totally wrong", but most meanings involve some element of unexpected/unexpectable nature, but most of the things that people refer to as "a road accident" seem reasonably expectable given the inputs, so "accident" seems like a poor choice of word at best.
Also, behaviour on the roads is a matter of law, so it seems fair to expect the legal meaning of "accident" should prevail and describing a collision as an "accident" is prejudicial.
Profpointy
Legendary Member
Yebbutt .. on the first point, "who was to blame for an accident" is a fairly standard question that might be asked by, say, an insurance company. So the "no blame" meaning you infer from the word is simply silly here.
In the workplace, accidents must, by law, be written up in the "accident book.", blame, compo, prosecutions for HSE breaches may result - so I don't know why you assert your "legal meaning" as a fact.
Some years back I read Clerk and Linsell on Tort (I gather the definitive book on such things) which is all about who is liable, and being to blame is one of the tests. I can't recall any suggestion of the legal meaning of accident being different from my oridnary English meaning.
jefmcg
Guru
it then goes on to list as an example, a sentence that seems to contradict that meaning. "the pregnancy was a stroke of bad luck." While it is common to refer to a pregnancy as an "accident", I don't think I would say it is ever "without apparent cause".
At least, not since Kathy Pugh explained it to me in a quiet corner of the playground.
mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
Doesn't it imply that some method of contraception was used but failed, hence "without apparent cause"?
Not my meaning, me duck... http://gcide.gnu.org.ua/?q=accident&define=Define&strategy=.
Oh lovely, citing a £125 book with no copy in the local library network
Let's just leave it as, at worst, the unexpectable meaning is widespread, strong and not a redefinition; and at best, using it for with-blame incidents is ambiguous and unhelpful.
Profpointy
Legendary Member
Doesn't it imply that some method of contraception was used but failed, hence "without apparent cause"?
Not my meaning, me duck... http://gcide.gnu.org.ua/?q=accident&define=Define&strategy=.
Oh lovely, citing a £125 book with no copy in the local library network
Let's just leave it as, at worst, the unexpectable meaning is widespread, strong and not a redefinition; and at best, using it for with-blame incidents is ambiguous and unhelpful.
yebbut there's not an alternative word. Screwup isn't quite the same meaning.
I do still contend it's a redefinition as the happenstance meaning often doesn't even imply harm or injury -"an accident of birth".
I got my Clerk and Lindsell rather cheaper - I was sceptical of what a lot of barrack room lawyers were asserting on club's liabilities so thought I'd actually check - I was right too! As an aside one of the people talking rubbish was an actual lawyer too
jefmcg
Guru
No, it really isn't. Just like a driver who after an accident realises he was driving too fast, the parents-to-be would be chiding themselves, saying "I thought we were being careful" Also, contraception failure isn't a mystery, it happens. Same as going fast around a blind corner, you can say "there's never anything around that bend" but there may be.
Accidents are unintended, but they can often be prevented.
On a similar note, here's a story rather than a semantic discourse: Jeremy Corbyn was visiting a London primary school and the class was in the middle of a discussion related to words and their meanings.
The teacher asked Mr Corbyn if he would like to lead the discussion on the word ‘tragedy’. So the illustrious Labour leader asked the class for an example of a ‘tragedy'.
A little boy stood up and offered: "If my best friend is playing football in the street, and a bus runs over him and kills him, that would be a tragedy."
"Incorrect," said Corbyn. "That would be an accident."
A little girl raised her hand: "If a school bus carrying fifty children drove off a bridge, killing everybody inside, that would be a tragedy."
‘‘I'm afraid not," explained Corbyn; "That's what we would refer to as a great loss."
The room went silent. No other children volunteered.
Corbyn searched the room. "Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?"
Finally, at the back of the room, little Johnny raised his hand and said:
"If a plane carrying you and Mr Balls, Mrs Harman and all the other Labour Party members was struck by a ‘friendly fire’ missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy."
’’Fantastic’ exclaimed Corbyn, "and can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?"
‘‘Well’, said Johnny, "it has to be a tragedy, because it certainly wouldn't be a great loss, and it probably wouldn't be a bloody accident either."
<substitute names to suit political persuasion/allegiance>
The teacher asked Mr Corbyn if he would like to lead the discussion on the word ‘tragedy’. So the illustrious Labour leader asked the class for an example of a ‘tragedy'.
A little boy stood up and offered: "If my best friend is playing football in the street, and a bus runs over him and kills him, that would be a tragedy."
"Incorrect," said Corbyn. "That would be an accident."
A little girl raised her hand: "If a school bus carrying fifty children drove off a bridge, killing everybody inside, that would be a tragedy."
‘‘I'm afraid not," explained Corbyn; "That's what we would refer to as a great loss."
The room went silent. No other children volunteered.
Corbyn searched the room. "Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?"
Finally, at the back of the room, little Johnny raised his hand and said:
"If a plane carrying you and Mr Balls, Mrs Harman and all the other Labour Party members was struck by a ‘friendly fire’ missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy."
’’Fantastic’ exclaimed Corbyn, "and can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?"
‘‘Well’, said Johnny, "it has to be a tragedy, because it certainly wouldn't be a great loss, and it probably wouldn't be a bloody accident either."
<substitute names to suit political persuasion/allegiance>
young Ed
Veteran
i can't remember for the life of me when but a few years back the police changed their terminology of road 'collisions' from an road traffic accident to an RTC Road Traffic Collision as they felt that covered all collisions suitably weather there be some person to blame or not
could you say the cyclist was at fault to some extent in such an incident if they weren't wearing suitable high visibility clothing and/or have their bike equipped with lights in the dark? or would they only be at fault if they were riding on the wrong side of the road or purposely swerving out into the middle of the lane/road?
what about if the cyclist swerved out into the road due to being blown by the wind?
IMO it's very hard to make a real judgement of when either party is or is not at fault
Cheers Ed
could you say the cyclist was at fault to some extent in such an incident if they weren't wearing suitable high visibility clothing and/or have their bike equipped with lights in the dark? or would they only be at fault if they were riding on the wrong side of the road or purposely swerving out into the middle of the lane/road?
what about if the cyclist swerved out into the road due to being blown by the wind?
IMO it's very hard to make a real judgement of when either party is or is not at fault
Cheers Ed
jefmcg
Guru
Hated that joke when I first heard it about Bob Hawke and Paul Keating, and hate it now.
And it certainly makes no sense to tell it about an opposition with no likelihood of making government. Man up and tell it about Cameron, Osborne and Gove (or your own choices for the latter 2) or don't tell it at all. Also, a joke has to be a little believable; how many children could name that many Labour politicians?
U
User33236
Guest
I came off on black ice in January. I blame myself for failing to take account of the overnight weather and paid out for the, thankfully low, replacement costs I incurred as a result.
PS Sorry to hear your YTD had 'been bad enough'.
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young Ed
Veteran
just over a year ago i was coming down a steep hill and round a tight corner i got blinded by the sun and hit a spot of black ice and was on the verge of losing my back end (as in i felt the back wheel disappear under me) and only missed out on the chance to see the underside of a car by sheer luck!
in hindsight i should probably blame myself for riding on summer slicks and doing about 30-40MPH in such conditions
had i met that car coming up the hill and caused damage to said car god only knows who the insurance would have deemed at fault, i can't see the car really being at fault so i'm not sure if they would have just put it down to no party at fault and bad weather conditions or if myself, the rider, would have been at fault
whilst i may have been at fault i would still have called it an accident, i hadn't purposely done something to cause an accident although i may not have been taking sensible precautions
Cheers Ed
U
User33236
Guest
You were therefore at fault.
YahudaMoon
Über Member
Accidents don't happen, mistakes happen
Guns don't kill people............
Guns don't kill people............
