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AlanW
Legendary Member
- Location
- Not to sure?
I'm just about to go down the exact same route, my 500g packet of Silca Super-Secret hot wax granules arrived today, and two chains were degreased and washed earlier in the week and have been hanging in the airing cupboard drying since then.
I've made three chain hangers using some old spokes, so it's looking good so far.
So, most probably over the weekend I'll be giving it a go, but as I don't have a suitable crock pot, so it will be a saucepan and hot water.
Question, do you "top up" the chain wax up at all with the bottled Silca Super-Secret wax, as per their recommendations?
AlanW
Legendary Member
- Location
- Not to sure?
Note to self: don't leave chains soaking in a water-soluble degreaser overnight, this is what greeted me when I pulled them out of the jar.....
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Note to self: don't leave chains soaking in a water-soluble degreaser overnight, this what greeted me when I pulled them out of the jar.....
View attachment 721796
Paraffin is good for degreasing - soak the chain in a jar; the contents of which can be periodically decanted / filtered and re-used
I found myself having to give the underside of my wax puck a good scraping last weekend; due to a visible amount of metallic contamination and a less visible (but very evident, by the scratchy channels left in the wax during scraping) non-metallic contam.
Not sure if the metallic contamination is that which escaped the last scraping after I ill-advisedly waxed some pre-worn chains, or whether it's the result of damage to other chains that have only ever been run with wax. I guess the gritty component is probably the result of running various utility bikes in sub-optimal conditions that I'd otherwise not have subjected my gear to under fair-weather, leisure activities.
I can't be arsed / don't see the need to meticulously degrease my chains pre-waxing, although in light of this development I will give them a good dry-brushing before going into the pan in an attempt to remove any grit that might be present from wet rides.
I've also noticed that post-scraping (which has probably removed a disproportionate amount of the moly powder I'd added) the mixture looks very graduated when set, with the upper half showing a distinct lack of moly. I think I'll keep adding wax and paraffin oil to top it up as it gets used, with a goal of ultimately phasing out the use of additives as I think they have limited benefit and potentially reduce the value of the process given their disproportionate cost compared to the wax alone.
alex_cycles
Guru
- Location
- Oxfordshire
Paraffin is good for degreasing - soak the chain in a jar; the contents of which can be periodically decanted / filtered and re-used
I found myself having to give the underside of my wax puck a good scraping last weekend; due to a visible amount of metallic contamination and a less visible (but very evident, by the scratchy channels left in the wax during scraping) non-metallic contam.
Not sure if the metallic contamination is that which escaped the last scraping after I ill-advisedly waxed some pre-worn chains, or whether it's the result of damage to other chains that have only ever been run with wax. I guess the gritty component is probably the result of running various utility bikes in sub-optimal conditions that I'd otherwise not have subjected my gear to under fair-weather, leisure activities.
I can't be arsed / don't see the need to meticulously degrease my chains pre-waxing, although in light of this development I will give them a good dry-brushing before going into the pan in an attempt to remove any grit that might be present from wet rides.
I've also noticed that post-scraping (which has probably removed a disproportionate amount of the moly powder I'd added) the mixture looks very graduated when set, with the upper half showing a distinct lack of moly. I think I'll keep adding wax and paraffin oil to top it up as it gets used, with a goal of ultimately phasing out the use of additives as I think they have limited benefit and potentially reduce the value of the process given their disproportionate cost compared to the wax alone.
I did the initial degrease, but thereafter I only air clean chains. Usually straight after a wet ride, which I rarely do since I have Zwift I don't need to ride outside when it's wet unless I get caught out by the weather.
I haven't seen any visible signs of contamination in my wax at all. Perhaps I'm just blissfully ignorant, but I'm not going to go looking for trouble either
Still on my original batch of wax. My indoor chains are getting quite a lot of use at the moment. I rotate them at around 200-250 miles. So the three chains have all had about 9 or 10 waxings since I got started. Every now and then I will measure them before removal for rewaxing. They've still got loads of life left in them - particularly since they're 9-speed so 0.75% is the replacement threshold.
I did the initial degrease, but thereafter I only air clean chains. Usually straight after a wet ride, which I rarely do since I have Zwift I don't need to ride outside when it's wet unless I get caught out by the weather.
I haven't seen any visible signs of contamination in my wax at all. Perhaps I'm just blissfully ignorant, but I'm not going to go looking for trouble either
Still on my original batch of wax. My indoor chains are getting quite a lot of use at the moment. I rotate them at around 200-250 miles. So the three chains have all had about 9 or 10 waxings since I got started. Every now and then I will measure them before removal for rewaxing. They've still got loads of life left in them - particularly since they're 9-speed so 0.75% is the replacement threshold.
Cool - I've degreased new ones in the past although now tend to just sling them in the pan as received. Air sounds like a great idea if they get wet; although sadly not a facility I have currently.
It's probably worth inspecting the underside of your puck after a few months; even if they are shedding metallic particulates getting them out into the wax and subsequently removing them is still probably better than just leaving them on the chain in an oil solution.
I'd expect them to last very well in indoor applications due to the total lack of possible contamination
Sea of vapours
Guru
- Location
- Clapham, Yorkshire Dales
Short answer: no.
Longer answer: whilst I did buy a bottle of the SS drip wax and used it initially, once I'd started immersive waxing I just stuck with it. For me, it's quicker to immerseively wax the chain than it is to apply the SS drip as the latter is a link by link process and thus slow, not to mention potentially messy. Plus, immersive is more effective. The time I'd use the drip wax is if I was away from the Crockpot, on a mutli-day trip for example. My partner did that on LEJOG this summer, using the SS drip every other day and swapping the chain for a ready-waxed one half way. That worked very well and she certainly had no issues.
alex_cycles
Guru
- Location
- Oxfordshire
Sea of vapours
Guru
- Location
- Clapham, Yorkshire Dales
[Final] Update on my first waxed chain's wear rate.
It's reached marginally under 0.5% wear after marginally over 15,000km. I shall retire it very shortly, once I've stripped a new chain of factory grease. The wear rate has increased over the last 5,000km, which I'm going to attribute to a distressingly high percentage of the time being spent riding in some degree of wetness, either merely very wet roads or combined with rain.
Definitely happy with that bonus longevity, my primary reasons for liking wax being cleanliness and quietness.
It's reached marginally under 0.5% wear after marginally over 15,000km. I shall retire it very shortly, once I've stripped a new chain of factory grease. The wear rate has increased over the last 5,000km, which I'm going to attribute to a distressingly high percentage of the time being spent riding in some degree of wetness, either merely very wet roads or combined with rain.
Definitely happy with that bonus longevity, my primary reasons for liking wax being cleanliness and quietness.
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alex_cycles
Guru
- Location
- Oxfordshire
Yellow Saddle
Guru
- Location
- Loch side.
So it's not crap then?
Yes it is.
A few more thousand waxed miles under the belt and a few more observations...
Wax Colour
The wax I've been using began as a typical opaque colourless / white variety, subsequently turned grey by the moly powder added. Over time it seems to have taken on an increasingly brown hue; and what little discussion I can find on the net suggests this is because it's been over-heated / "burned" and should be replaced.
I'm somewhat dubious of this explanation as I've never really cooked it (it's maybe seen 90 degrees C tops occasionally), and have had wax smoking hot in the past / at the point where it will vapourise and burn like a little chip pan fire, and don't recall any discolouration of what was left.
The colour seemed to get even more yellow / brown after I recently started using a new chain, which I think provides a clue. This had been half-arsedly rinsed in paraffin to remove the sticky factory grease, however handling afterwards suggested that there was still a fair amount left on the chain before it went in the pan.
The obvous conclusion is currently that the yellowing is the result of grease on the chain dissolving in the wax. The puck is currently about 1" thick and the yellowness is mostly confined to the top 1/4" or so; I'm not sure if this is indicitive of the lighter hydrocarbons in the grease rising to the top as it cools, or that the colour is otherwise homogenous but disguised by the heavier moly powder that gravitates towards the bottom of the puck.
Equally it's possible that the wax could be oxidising / breaking down over time / repeated heat cycles - but I can't find any information on how likely this is.
Is this a problem? Not that I can tell.. the wax still seems to be doing its job so I'm in no hurry to replace it and will keep topping it up as the level in the pan gradually drops.
Metallic Contamination
As covered in my post from June 2023 I'd previously encountered some significant metallic contamination settling out at the bottom of the wax puck.
At the time it was speculated that this was likely from a couple of chains that had been previously run for a good distance with conventional lube before being waxed, rather than from items that had been waxed from new.
When this post was made the puck would have seen about 7-8k miles worth of waxing, while in the 2.5yrs elapsed since the contamination was removed I've waxed another 10-11k miles worth of chains.
Checking the underside of the puck recently has revealed next to no metallic contamination, with that present apparently restricted to one or two obvious flakes and nothing like the uniform glittery layer that made up maybe the bottom 1/8" of the puck last time.
So, it appears that this contamination was indeed the result of waxing previously-oiled / significantly worn chains; the takeaway being to only wax new chains if possible and if you must wax a partially-used, previously oiled chain to ensure it's really thoroughly cleaned beforehand (if this is even possible).
This potentially raises questions about what happens to wear-induced metallic contamination in chains. Presumably with an oiled chain the steel fragments worn off the chain remain captive between mating wear faces of the chain; held in suspension in the oil. Conversely since such fragments don't seem to appear in the pan post-wax they must be going somewhere – I assume being pushed out of the chain with the wax as it's displaced during use.
This also makes me wonder whether the mechanism of wear differs significantly between oiled and waxed chains. We all know the former allows external contamination (dust, grit etc) to be drawn into the chain by capillary action and act to abrade the corresponding surfaces in the chain.
Since wax evidently hugely reduces the ingress of such external contamination, I wonder if the metallic particles that result from wear are perhaps a lot smaller...?
Chain Longevity
Finally the distance covered on various waxed chains has allowed me to make some anecdotal observations about chain life.
Brompton:
KMC E8 and original SRAM PC10 (8 speed), both written off at 0.5% wear at around 2-2.5k miles on each chain. Both low-mid range chains, subject to a pretty hard life as used in all weathers while the drive train is pretty close to the ground on this bike and running around small (13, 16T) sprockets at the rear (50T chainring) which are known to increase friction / wear. The chains are also a bit shorter than normal at 100 links compared to the 112-114 links typically found on a full size bike with conventional derailleur drivetrain.
A fairly significant amount of variation in wear found between different links, with an approximate correlation with where each link is loaded relative to the pedal stroke.
Fuji:
KMC X9 and X9 EPT (9sp); both low-mid range chains and of comparable quality to those on the Brompton above. First partially worn when I got the bike so difficult to assess mileage to failure. Second got to about 4k miles from new although it was excessively worn in some areas so should have been written off before this point – perhaps reaching 0.5% wear at 3-3.5k miles. Used in all weathers, typically running on a 36T chain ring and at the smaller end of the cassette – the 15T and 17T sprockets apparently seeing the highest median use.
Very large amounts of variation in wear between links, with some still showing at inside the 0.5% wear limit with others clearly exceeding this by a good amount.
Given the similar chain quality and operating conditions to those on the Brompton, I suspect this comparison offers a reasonable insight into the differences in lifespan between chains used on the Brompton and more conventional drive trains.
Genesis:
KMC X11 (11sp), a mid-range chain that’s touted as having greater wear resistance than the X8/X9. Potentially had an easier life than those above as mostly fair-weather use on larger chainrings / sprockets (50/34 and 11-34 cassette). Currently sat at around 4.5k miles with very little suggestion of wear, and it wouldn’t surprise me if this got to 6-7k before it needed replacing.
Obviously difficult to make comparisons to those above given the number of different variables involved.
It's interesting to note that so far none of the chains that have reached / exceeded 0.5% wear have done so at anywhere near the mileage suggested by measurement early in their lives. I suspect this is due to measurement error (as discussed earlier in this thread) and likely exponential wear behaviour - i.e. the more worn the chain, the faster it wears - so wear rate accelerates as the chain heads towards the end of its life.
I’ve started running X11s on the Fuji’s now so it’ll be interesting to see how these wear compared to the same chain in the Genesis application / seemingly lower-quality chains previously fitted to the Fuji.
How's everyone else getting on?
Wax Colour
The wax I've been using began as a typical opaque colourless / white variety, subsequently turned grey by the moly powder added. Over time it seems to have taken on an increasingly brown hue; and what little discussion I can find on the net suggests this is because it's been over-heated / "burned" and should be replaced.
I'm somewhat dubious of this explanation as I've never really cooked it (it's maybe seen 90 degrees C tops occasionally), and have had wax smoking hot in the past / at the point where it will vapourise and burn like a little chip pan fire, and don't recall any discolouration of what was left.
The colour seemed to get even more yellow / brown after I recently started using a new chain, which I think provides a clue. This had been half-arsedly rinsed in paraffin to remove the sticky factory grease, however handling afterwards suggested that there was still a fair amount left on the chain before it went in the pan.
The obvous conclusion is currently that the yellowing is the result of grease on the chain dissolving in the wax. The puck is currently about 1" thick and the yellowness is mostly confined to the top 1/4" or so; I'm not sure if this is indicitive of the lighter hydrocarbons in the grease rising to the top as it cools, or that the colour is otherwise homogenous but disguised by the heavier moly powder that gravitates towards the bottom of the puck.
Equally it's possible that the wax could be oxidising / breaking down over time / repeated heat cycles - but I can't find any information on how likely this is.
Is this a problem? Not that I can tell.. the wax still seems to be doing its job so I'm in no hurry to replace it and will keep topping it up as the level in the pan gradually drops.
Metallic Contamination
As covered in my post from June 2023 I'd previously encountered some significant metallic contamination settling out at the bottom of the wax puck.
At the time it was speculated that this was likely from a couple of chains that had been previously run for a good distance with conventional lube before being waxed, rather than from items that had been waxed from new.
When this post was made the puck would have seen about 7-8k miles worth of waxing, while in the 2.5yrs elapsed since the contamination was removed I've waxed another 10-11k miles worth of chains.
Checking the underside of the puck recently has revealed next to no metallic contamination, with that present apparently restricted to one or two obvious flakes and nothing like the uniform glittery layer that made up maybe the bottom 1/8" of the puck last time.
So, it appears that this contamination was indeed the result of waxing previously-oiled / significantly worn chains; the takeaway being to only wax new chains if possible and if you must wax a partially-used, previously oiled chain to ensure it's really thoroughly cleaned beforehand (if this is even possible).
This potentially raises questions about what happens to wear-induced metallic contamination in chains. Presumably with an oiled chain the steel fragments worn off the chain remain captive between mating wear faces of the chain; held in suspension in the oil. Conversely since such fragments don't seem to appear in the pan post-wax they must be going somewhere – I assume being pushed out of the chain with the wax as it's displaced during use.
This also makes me wonder whether the mechanism of wear differs significantly between oiled and waxed chains. We all know the former allows external contamination (dust, grit etc) to be drawn into the chain by capillary action and act to abrade the corresponding surfaces in the chain.
Since wax evidently hugely reduces the ingress of such external contamination, I wonder if the metallic particles that result from wear are perhaps a lot smaller...?
Chain Longevity
Finally the distance covered on various waxed chains has allowed me to make some anecdotal observations about chain life.
Brompton:
KMC E8 and original SRAM PC10 (8 speed), both written off at 0.5% wear at around 2-2.5k miles on each chain. Both low-mid range chains, subject to a pretty hard life as used in all weathers while the drive train is pretty close to the ground on this bike and running around small (13, 16T) sprockets at the rear (50T chainring) which are known to increase friction / wear. The chains are also a bit shorter than normal at 100 links compared to the 112-114 links typically found on a full size bike with conventional derailleur drivetrain.
A fairly significant amount of variation in wear found between different links, with an approximate correlation with where each link is loaded relative to the pedal stroke.
Fuji:
KMC X9 and X9 EPT (9sp); both low-mid range chains and of comparable quality to those on the Brompton above. First partially worn when I got the bike so difficult to assess mileage to failure. Second got to about 4k miles from new although it was excessively worn in some areas so should have been written off before this point – perhaps reaching 0.5% wear at 3-3.5k miles. Used in all weathers, typically running on a 36T chain ring and at the smaller end of the cassette – the 15T and 17T sprockets apparently seeing the highest median use.
Very large amounts of variation in wear between links, with some still showing at inside the 0.5% wear limit with others clearly exceeding this by a good amount.
Given the similar chain quality and operating conditions to those on the Brompton, I suspect this comparison offers a reasonable insight into the differences in lifespan between chains used on the Brompton and more conventional drive trains.
Genesis:
KMC X11 (11sp), a mid-range chain that’s touted as having greater wear resistance than the X8/X9. Potentially had an easier life than those above as mostly fair-weather use on larger chainrings / sprockets (50/34 and 11-34 cassette). Currently sat at around 4.5k miles with very little suggestion of wear, and it wouldn’t surprise me if this got to 6-7k before it needed replacing.
Obviously difficult to make comparisons to those above given the number of different variables involved.
It's interesting to note that so far none of the chains that have reached / exceeded 0.5% wear have done so at anywhere near the mileage suggested by measurement early in their lives. I suspect this is due to measurement error (as discussed earlier in this thread) and likely exponential wear behaviour - i.e. the more worn the chain, the faster it wears - so wear rate accelerates as the chain heads towards the end of its life.
I’ve started running X11s on the Fuji’s now so it’ll be interesting to see how these wear compared to the same chain in the Genesis application / seemingly lower-quality chains previously fitted to the Fuji.
How's everyone else getting on?
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Ming the Merciless
There is no mercy
- Location
- Inside my skull
How often did you remove the chain for waxing?
