Adverts for illegal ebikes

[Drago]

One big problem with criminals- they break the law!

That's the very nature of their being, and new laws tend to penalise the already law abiding while the villains carry on as before. That's but one of a multitude of reasons why ebike insurance would be futile.

 

[BoldonLad]

IMHO, we need some enforcement.

A few days ago, I was cycling along a shared pedestrian/horseriding/cycling track, when overtaken by a chap on an electric scooter. We were approaching the end of the track, where it crosses an "A" road. There was a Police Car parked, presumably, the occupants were either watching out for (motoring) offenders, or, eating their sandwiches. The scooter rider sailed on by, no challenge from the Police.

I appreciate, enforcement may require an increase in Police numbers, I leave that discussion for NACA.

 

[bonzobanana]

The trouble with ebikes is the law is a complete mess. For a start with a hub motor ebike the motor doesn't really have a stated wattage. They work with a wide range of wattages typically. You might have a geared hub motor that can work from 150W to maybe 750W and then you have a direct drive hub motor that works from 200W to 3000W. For hub motors it is the controller that dictates the wattage not the hub motor. The ebike law is written in such an amateur and ridiculous way it makes little sense. Most pre-built mid-drive ebikes that state they are 250W are not they often operate well beyond 700W and yet are openly sold as 250W ebikes. These ebikes consume huge current to generate their peak torque which is often close to 100Nm. Somehow they are legal and yet other ebikes using for less power are somehow illegal. It's just a complete farce to be honest. Mid-drive motors typically have the controller built into the main motor assembly so you can state a wattage for the whole unit but even then the wattage stated is false.

Those groupon ebikes are probably using peak wattage as a selling point and they likely are far less powerful than the ebikes openly sold as 250W with Bosch mid-drive motors etc.

So it's strange to read people who often have these extremely powerful fake 250W mid-drive ebikes looking at others and complaining about the legality of far less powerful ebikes.

Ultimately EU legislation and certification for ebikes is not professional or fair and makes little sense so its become unworkable to a degree. I mean what are you meant to do when certification states something is 250W when clearly it isn't and simple tests show it can be performing at 3x that wattage? How can you prosecute one ebike for being 500W when you are claiming a much more powerful ebike is legal? It's unworkable. I mean are we going to have a amnesty where all these fake 250W mid-drive ebikes are collected and crushed because they aren't what they claim to be?

Now that we have left the EU surely better to implement are own ebike laws that are fair to all manufacturers and consumers. Maybe 350W max nominal wattage and 500W maximum peak wattage. Implement a 20mph maximum assistance speed to work with our 20mph zones and set a maximum 8mph limit for passing pedestrains on shared paths. Also a certification process for battery construction and allow throttles just like most countries in the world. No reason to legislate against throttles.

 

[Dadam]

is the 250 watts specified in law as the input, i.e electrical power, volts x amps, or is it the output, rotational kinetic power ie, torque x rpm?

If kinetic is it measured at the motor crank, the pedal crank (if mid drive) or the hub?

 

[Regular.Cyclist]

Electrically power assisted cycles need to comply with the EN15194:2017 standard to be ‘legal‘. Anything that doesn’t is, by default, ‘illegal’. That should not be difficult to determine.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I don't know about the power produced by my mid drive Bosch motor (ACtiv Line range)
what I do know is that I would have to pedal like mad to keep up with those hub drive motorised bikes that wizz past me with no pedal input at all
There is a clear differentce between the "legal" ebikes which have a hub drive motor a few inches across
then there are MUCH faster ones tht have a motor about 6 inches across
and then other ones that are dinner plate sized

there is not way, even in full power assist, that my "legal" ebike can keep up with anything above apart from the "legal" ones


OK- I sound like I am moaning - sorry
what I am trying to say it in in real life I can see a huge difference between the legal ones - i.e. sold by a known brand for road use (e.g. Bosch, Carrera, SunTour) in the UK
and the other ones.

I do agree that a more sensible system needs to be implemented but I don;t understand the measurement of power enough
I just know what I see on the streets!

 

[Dadam]

Electrically power assisted cycles need to comply with the EN14294:2017 standard to be ‘legal‘. Anything that doesn’t is, by default, ‘illegal’. That should not be difficult to determine.

Are you sure about that?
“This European Standard specifies procedures for the preparation of test pieces comprising adhesive coated leather or other footwear upper material onto ...”
google just gives me stuff related to that

 

[Drago]

Absolutely he's sure. Its contrary to Space Corps directive 196156.

 

[Regular.Cyclist]

Are you sure about that?
“This European Standard specifies procedures for the preparation of test pieces comprising adhesive coated leather or other footwear upper material onto ...”
google just gives me stuff related to that

Typo corrected.

 

[classic33]

The trouble with ebikes is the law is a complete mess. For a start with a hub motor ebike the motor doesn't really have a stated wattage. They work with a wide range of wattages typically. You might have a geared hub motor that can work from 150W to maybe 750W and then you have a direct drive hub motor that works from 200W to 3000W. For hub motors it is the controller that dictates the wattage not the hub motor. The ebike law is written in such an amateur and ridiculous way it makes little sense. Most pre-built mid-drive ebikes that state they are 250W are not they often operate well beyond 700W and yet are openly sold as 250W ebikes. These ebikes consume huge current to generate their peak torque which is often close to 100Nm. Somehow they are legal and yet other ebikes using for less power are somehow illegal. It's just a complete farce to be honest. Mid-drive motors typically have the controller built into the main motor assembly so you can state a wattage for the whole unit but even then the wattage stated is false.

Those groupon ebikes are probably using peak wattage as a selling point and they likely are far less powerful than the ebikes openly sold as 250W with Bosch mid-drive motors etc.

So it's strange to read people who often have these extremely powerful fake 250W mid-drive ebikes looking at others and complaining about the legality of far less powerful ebikes.

Ultimately EU legislation and certification for ebikes is not professional or fair and makes little sense so its become unworkable to a degree. I mean what are you meant to do when certification states something is 250W when clearly it isn't and simple tests show it can be performing at 3x that wattage? How can you prosecute one ebike for being 500W when you are claiming a much more powerful ebike is legal? It's unworkable. I mean are we going to have a amnesty where all these fake 250W mid-drive ebikes are collected and crushed because they aren't what they claim to be?

Now that we have left the EU surely better to implement are own ebike laws that are fair to all manufacturers and consumers. Maybe 350W max nominal wattage and 500W maximum peak wattage. Implement a 20mph maximum assistance speed to work with our 20mph zones and set a maximum 8mph limit for passing pedestrains on shared paths. Also a certification process for battery construction and allow throttles just like most countries in the world. No reason to legislate against throttles.

Go back to the old rules in that case.

 

[raleighnut]

On the back of the incident in cardiff (being 'discussed' on NACA but it seems to have descended into insults for now)

I got an advert from Groupon a couple of days ago that included an ebike

or so it said

you can find it by searching for "Groupon Monster ebike MTB"

Anyway - I looked at it out of interest and noticed that the motor on it is rated at 500W

and at no point in the advert does it say that this bike is not legal for road use
so - I think I am safe in assuming - people could buy it and use it on roads without realising that it is not legal
(clearly I am referring to UK laws and regulation here - other countries vary!)

so I send of a complaint to Groupon and have had a to and fro conversation with them over the last few days
this morning they basically came back saying they would forward it onto their supplier and, in general, just said it is not their problem - they just sell it for them

so I said I was happy to discuss it with the supplier
BUT
as they are advertising it on their site they are also responsible and should be making it clear that it is NOT road legal

does anyone know the actual laws regarding this - surely Groupon ARE responsible whether they have the expertise/knowledge or not is not relevant (e.g. if they sold guns they couldn't say "whoops didn't know")

also - anyone else seeing adverts like this selling electric motorbikes but showing them as "ebikes"


thanks

Mike

Do they come with a free blue box thingy that has 'Deliveroo' printed on it

 

[steveindenmark]

Thanks

what else are retired people for if not to moan and annoy normal people!!!

You must be a young idiot.

If you think I have reached the age of 65 and do not intend to take full advantage of my right to whinge and moan about everything. You are sadly mistaken. I have earned that right. I have waited all my life for it.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

reminds me - I have been meaning to moan - sorry as - the local counsellor about the golf club "over the back" because they have been "renovating" it for about 9 years now -


and the "pond" that was part of teh new Widnes RUncorn bridge landscaping and has never been wet

and
err
I forget

which is another thing


anyway - SWMBO reckons I will be getting a reputation!!!

 

[Drago]

You must be a young idiot.

If you think I have reached the age of 65 and do not intend to take full advantage of my right to whinge and moan about everything. You are sadly mistaken. I have earned that right. I have waited all my life for it.

Exactement! We no longer have to bit our lip and keepmit all bottled up for the sake of our jobs. We can say what we think and no one can do ferk all about it, and it's wonderful! I've been giving it both barrels since I retired nearly 6 years ago.

 

[CXRAndy]

20 mph should be adopted, it's the now common urban and city speed limit. Travelling at the flow will reduce dangerous overtaking.