All these fatalities

[jonny jeez]

IMO the muppets are those not looking back to interact with car drivers, not necessarily those wearing headphones. I'll admit that the two often go together though.

Car drivers hate it when we don't look back, and even more so when we don't look back before manouvering. It's so important to establish that sense of communication, to negotiate and to appear to be more human than a lycra lout. Look back, and often drivers will leave you more space and or back off a little more than they otherwise would.

+10 on that point…communication (good and bad) is vital!

Back to the thread tho.

I am also very interested to understand these facts as I want to ensure that I am doing all I can to NOT fall into any particular category that my be more inclined to accidents (if this exists).

I am reading cyclecraft as well as other bike stuff but do find that real experience (that is particular to my location and journey) is invaluable.

I really like the idea of a sticky of advice/pointers from the more experienced riders…that's a great plan.

So who would like to volunteer? Don’t be shy, If you've been riding for years you have accumulated a vast deposit of experience that we could all benefit from.

 

[BentMikey]

Whilst internet advice is good, I think there's nothing to beat training from an experienced instructor in real life.

 

[007fair]

I think the answer is far simpler than many would imagine. In addition the fear of accidents (and fatalities) is far, far greater than the reality. As a former Advanced Police Driver I know that almost all crashes are as a result of failing to concentrate .

I agree with you Paul but the problem is out of the cyclists hands in that no matter how well a cyclist behaves or concentrates it just takes one careless moment from a passing driver and its all over. Any accident on the road that does NOT involve car is highly unlikely to result in a fatality - obviously
So are we not talking about stricter punishments for careless driving due to the fact that a car is so dangerous. I have heard it (car) being called a lethal 'weapon'...not that people use it as a weapon but it is just as dangerous if used carelessly (not just the young speed freaks but the mobile phone users etc).
Are current driving tests pushing the fact that the new driver is responsible for how they drive and the consequences of not concentrating
And in court other countries (Netherlands I believe) do come down hard on careless drivers.

Also .. how come you are junior member with 20 years experience on the police force

 

[BentMikey]

Can we not call collisions accidents please? It's pretty offensive, though I know you didn't intend to be.

 

[Crankarm]

I think the answer is far simpler than many would imagine. In addition the fear of accidents (and fatalities) is far, far greater than the reality. As a former Advanced Police Driver I know that almost all crashes are as a result of failing to concentrate and not 'reading the road'. Timidity also comes into it. In twenty years of service, always out on the road, I went to very very few crashes (we gave up calling them 'accidents a few years ago) involving bikes although I do remember two fatals. One was at night. A young cyclist properly dressed and with good lights was riding home along an unlit country lane having finished work at the local paper mill at 10pm. At the same time a middle aged man was driving up the same lane also having left the same workplace at the same time. Now whether he was blinded by oncoming vehicles we don't know but he collided with the back of the cyclist who had no chance. The driver drove a further 1/2 mile with the remains of one of the bike wheels wrapped around his suspension before suffering from a heart attack. A very sad case.

Another incident involved a cyclist riding up a (painted on) cycle lane alongside a fast dual carriageway. With traffic speeding along at over 70mph inches from his right shoulder, it was a gamble which failed to come off.

There is a tremendous lack of awareness and a lack of concentration on the part of ALL road users - drivers, motorcyclists, riders and pedestrians. Drivers seem to like to chat to their passengers as well as looking at them. They like to waive their hands around when talking. Motorcyclists often ride far too fast for the road conditions. Cyclists often blatently ignore traffic lights and weave between cars. Pedestrians are often in a world of their own. My wife moans at me for regularly pointing out bad driving and it's because she also talks too much/looks at her passenger/waives her hands about whilst driving. She thinks that's normal. Me? I concentrate. I don't speak much, my hands are on the wheel, I mirror check every few seconds. Driving (and riding) can be a dangerous time so we must all concentrate more. And expect the unexpected.

You must be a whole bundle of laughs with your missus on a nice day out to the seaside .........

 

[Crankarm]

Hardly any because

1) My music is so low I can still hear cars
2) I frequently look behind, especially when moving out from my position
3) I try and take an early primary to avoid having to move out suddenly

And what are you going to do when silent electric cars are more prevalent? the first pedestrian deaths have already been accounted to the fact the pedestrian didn't hear the car and stepped out.

So what fatalities are these then? Were they electrocuted or did they die from the shock of seeing an electric car ?

 

[peanut]

I think the answer is far simpler than many would imagine.

very good post Paul. I would agree 100% . Most poor driving and cycling manoevers seem to stem from a lack of awareness of other road users.

In a car I hang well back from the car in front. It gives me plenty of time to react to anything happening up front. I dodn't understand how some drivers can drive at 70mph+ on someones bumper? they must enjoy living on the 'ragged edge' of their nerves.

I would very much like to see some analysis of some of the most recent accidents involving cyclists particulary with HGV.

My own view is that a large number of cyclists have no driving licence and therfore little appreciation of 'road awareness' and the ability to predict the likely manoevers of other road users.

It seems inexplicable to me that cyclists cycle down the inside of a HGV when approaching a left turn or roundabout even in a car I hang well back of HGV on a RaB (especially if I am on the inside lane.) I generally hang back and flash my lights to show the driver he has the whole RaB .
It gives the HGV driver the room to negotiate the RaB without having to worry about squeezing vehicles on their inside lane.

 

[BentMikey]

I agree, it's incredible how many cyclists try to scoot up the inside of large vehicles, or do other stupid manouvers.

My own view is that a large number of cyclists have no driving licence and therfore little appreciation of 'road awareness' and the ability to predict the likely manoevers of other road users.

I think the bold bit is probably wrong, given that cyclists are apparently over-represented by younger relatively wealthy males. It's the common misconception amongst non-cyclists.

Having a driving license doesn't seem to help some drivers look even two seconds into the future, or drive well, so it won't help those same people when cycling either.

 

[srw]

So what fatalities are these then? Were they electrocuted or did they die from the shock of seeing an electric car ?

You are being an arse today, aren't you?

For what it's worth, in response to the OP, my best guess is that the growth of the internet means that we're now far more aware of cyclists dying on the roads than we ever were before. Ten years ago most wouldn't have made it further than the pages of the local newspaper. Now they're all over places like this within an hour or two.

 

[jonny jeez]

I agree, it's incredible how many cyclists try to scoot up the inside of large vehicles, or do other stupid manouvers.



Having a driving license doesn't seem to help some drivers look even two seconds into the future, or drive well, so it won't help those same people when cycling either.

Although, I wonder how many of those cyclist involved in serious acc…collisions are not holders of a drivers license.

It would be interesting to understand that, it may have great bearing on this point.

 

[007fair]

You must be a whole bundle of laughs with your missus on a nice day out to the seaside .........

oh yeah .. regular comedian me!

 

[Paul Narramore]

You must be a whole bundle of laughs with your missus on a nice day out to the seaside .........

Ah but that is the point. Driving isn't meant to be a 'whole barrel of laughs', it's meant to be taken seriously and that requires concentration. I know for certain if I begin to get involved in a conversation in the car, small errors in my driving will start to occur. With our congested roads, there's so much information to take in, we need that concentration. There'll be enough time at the seaside to engage in chat and laughter, not when driving down the M2 at 70mph being overtaken by the Beemers and Audis all doing 95mph.

I'll give you an example of something I witnessed yesterday. I was driving down a duel carriageway into town and in the far distance 1/2 a mile away, was one of those large veicles in the nearside lane with a humungous illuminated and flashing arrow telling approaching vehicles to overtake and move into the offside lane. Some on seeing it, moved across early. Others drove right up behind this lorry, braked and almost came to a halt. A few then indicated (well that's something) and started to move across in the path of the overtaking vehicles which had to brake heavily. No bloody awareness of the road or what's ahead of them.

And cycling is the same. 'Read the road' is a term frequently used during Police driving courses. Be aware of what is around you. Look around you and over your shoulder frequently. There's no need to become a nervous wreck, but by looking around yourself often and anticipating what is happening with other traffic, riding (and driving) will become more nature rather than a life-threatening experience.

There, I'm off my soapbox for the time being.

 

[Davidc]

Be careful with these numbers. They need a context.

Firstly the figure given above, of 0.6 a day, equates to 220 a year.
The last national figure for road deaths was 2500. That puts cyclists at just under 1 in 10 of those.

The total for road deaths in the 1960s when I cycled to school was around 8000 a year. I recall (correct me if I'm wrong) that the policeman from Croydon who tried to frighten those of us who regularly cycled to school into riding safely told us that 600 cyclists a year died on the roads (of the UK or England -?-). Thats very roughly the same proportion of total deaths (even though seat belts in cars were then a rarity).

I think our road death figures are a disgrace now let alone then, BUT when the numbers are in their historical context it says that we're all safer on the roads than ever before during our lifetimes, whether on a bike or anything else.

It won't happen, but I'd like to see severe and draconian measures taken to quickly reduce death and injury on the roads. That should include what's been said above, the investigation of all collisions followed by evidence based actions to prevent recurrences. That's what has reduced rail and air accidents to a tiny level. Back to the numbers - when there is an accident on either of these it's headline news for a week. As a result three people I know hate air travel and give as a reason that it's too dangerous, airoplanes are always crashing. They've looked at the numbers but not considered the context. Another acquaintance won't travel by train since the Paddington crash. Same problem. All four drive cars. (Neither can any of the four understand me riding a bike because it's so dangerous!)

In general statistics without context are dangerous. A good example recently was when a national newspaper commissioned research into an aspect of literacy and got the best result ever measured. It wasn't what they wanted to see. Their feature article said "National Disgrace. [Measured Parameter] only 50%. [Digital Media] to blame". Followed by a slagging off of the government for "allowing" this dreadful situation to arise and demanding a campaign to ban e-books!

 

[jonny jeez]

Ah but that is the point. Driving isn't meant to be a 'whole barrel of laughs', it's meant to be taken seriously and that requires concentration. .

And If anyone doubts this then try and undertake this test of concentration, taught to me by my father (another advanced Police motorist)

- Take a normal drive along any given road, as you go, verbalise everything that you see…every risk, every opportunity of risk, every potential danger every potential safety point, exit point…etc

-Actually drive along talking through all of these, you'll be amazed just how much there is to see and to concentrate on.

-Then look at your speed…you WILL have slowed down, without even realizing it

Then remember that when you next get in the car and start driving whilst putting on the seatbelt and selecting your fav track on the MP3 and putting your phone into its cradle…or when you are having a lively debate with your pal's in the car…its impossible to do all of this and still concentrate that much.

That said, Driving can be one of the most enjoyable experiences ever…just keep some respect for the level of concentration required to do it properly.

 

[Amanda P]

I dodn't understand how some drivers can drive at 70mph+ on someones bumper? they must enjoy living on the 'ragged edge' of their nerves.

I don't think they are on the edge of their nerves - most have no idea that what they are doing could have serious consequences.

The problem is that 999 times out of 1000, we do something risky on the road and we get away with it (whatever it is - tailgating, failing to observe something, a dodgy overtake, jumping a red light, you name it). We get away with it by good luck, because another driver is concentrating and has allowed for our error, because the ABS kicks in, etc.

So our bad behaviour goes unpunished. So we do it again. And again.

Years ago I worked with a woman who routinely tailgated. As we did a lot of driving together, it wound me up and became a routine topic of conversation. This went on for a couple of years.

Then one day she bought her first brand new car. Two days later, she rear-ended someone she'd been tailgating. Her precious new car was off the road for weeks being repaired, she had to pay a hefty excess, and paying the next year's insurance premium really hurt her.

She stopped tailgating after that.

Paul's right - some advanced training (driving or cycling) makes you much more aware of what might go wrong. Usually it doesn't, but concentration makes the difference between crashing or not crashing when something does go wrong.