another one RIP

[Red Light]

[QUOTE 1632811, member: 3143"]By being aware and holding a promient position on the road reinforced with regular checks. Works for me.[/quote]

If you think that's going to protect you from the likes of Andrew Stubbs or Dennis Putz, I would suggest you are deluding yourself. Remember in each of the last three lorry deaths in London, the driver has been arrested, at least two of them for dangerous ( that's dangerous not careless) driving.

 

[ComedyPilot]

Looking at some cycle commute videos it startles me the amount of people rushing to go through the 'death zone' up the inside of buses and lorries at lights. I think Gaz of this parish has a compilation vid where he is passed by about 10 POB's going up the inside of a bus?

We don't know the full circumstances yet, so it would be wrong to speculate either way as to what happened. Yes some drivers are complete tools, and some cyclists really push their luck - neither party's journey needs to end in a police cell or a box.

 

[Bicycle]

I cycled to and from school along Stamford Street or Victoria Embankment in the 70s and was a motorcycle courier in the 80s.

Lorries have ever been a hazard and people have been killed by them since (almost) the days of Cain.

No level of training will ever compensate for driver error. Sadly, that can kill a cyclist or a pedestrian in an instant.

What surprises me when I cycle in London (and I do not for a moment suggest that any RTC victim mentioned on these pages did this) is quite how many cyclists seem to be oblivious to the dangers of filtering around lorries, scooting up the inside of them or riding close to them whilst in the driver's blind spot.

I believe there may be a case for training HGV drivers to be more aware of cyclists and pedestrians in traffic. I think a good number of cyclists might also have a little think about how they ride around heavy vehicles. It's a free country and I'm all for letting cyclists find out the hard way (I don't advise or lecture other road users) but some undertaking of lorries near to junctions is just suicidal.

Once again, there is no implied criticism in this post of the riding of any cyclist mentioned in this thread.

 

[Red Light]

We don't know the full circumstances yet, so it would be wrong to speculate either way as to what happened.

But we do know that "The 31-year-old lorry driver was arrested in connection with the incident and is now in custody at a south London police station."

 

[HLaB]

The most recent example was an HGV overtaking me and finding its way blocked by a right turning taxi in the outside lane. Rather than stop behind the taxi he decided to undertake the taxi while still overtaking me. I did a quick pre-planned hop up onto the pavement a bit before the point where the side of the trailer would have knocked me under his rear wheels having already spotted the stopped taxi and what was likely to happen as he started his overtake. Driving like that is just not an acceptable standard no matter what you claim about all the testing he will have gone through.

OffT, something similar happened to me but there was railings on my inside and we were approaching a bend. I was a bit premature with my rap on his cab but to his due he took it well and the important thing is he didn't crush me.
Back OnT I think we have all seen good and bad from all sides like you say, youtube highlights a lot of them and you are right, it seems disproportionate and mistakes are only fatal for one side :-(

 

[Red Light]

[QUOTE 1632866, member: 3143"]Not deluding myself at all. Both the above incidents were the result of a left turning lorry, the footage of the Putz incident I've watched. In the case of this incident the cyclist was next to the kerb at the red light, when Putz pulled up to the lights alongside the cyclist, that then went green and the collision occured. I would not been in that position.

As I said, a promient position reinforced with regular checks.[/quote]

To see you he has to be looking:

"Mr Polnay told the court: 'Tests were carried out by police standing where Ms Patel was and there's no doubt that Ms Patel clearly would have been visible in the truck's mirrors. 'If Mr Putz had looked once in the 29 seconds they were both stationary he would have seen Ms Putz."​

​

Emma Foa was visible to the truck driver for a similar length of time before he ran over her and killed her. But he was too busy checking his pay slip to see if he had been paid enough to bother looking.

​

Tony Spinks was clinging to the windscreen wipers and hammering on the cab windscreen before he was dragged under Andrew Stubb's lorry and killed. To do that he had to have been in a prominent position in front of the cab before he was hit.

In my recent incident I described I was clearly visible to the driver as I was in the primary position and he was overtaking me when he pulled back in on me to undertake a taxi in his way.

 

[ComedyPilot]

But we do know that "The 31-year-old lorry driver was arrested in connection with the incident and is now in custody at a south London police station."

As should any driver 'suspected' of causing a death by the manner of their driving.

 

[xpc316e]

Yes and women should all wear burqas to go out at night.

As long as they had some retroreflective material on them, I wouldn't necessarily object.

 

[spen666]

If you think that's going to protect you from the likes of Andrew Stubbs or Dennis Putz, I would suggest you are deluding yourself. Remember in each of the last three lorry deaths in London, the driver has been arrested, at least two of them for dangerous ( that's dangerous not careless) driving.

Being arrested is irrelevant, its merely prt of a police investigation. It is not a measure of blame or guilt.

Whether anyone is charged is only slightly more a measure of guilt/ blame - remember innocent until proven guilty.

What would support your argument is the number of people convicted of driving offences in fatal crashes.

I have no idea of the evidence in any of the 3 cases you refer to and it may be that the drivers were to blame. however, your measure of blame is wholly inaccurate

 

[Red Light]

Being arrested is irrelevant, its merely prt of a police investigation. It is not a measure of blame or guilt.

Whether anyone is charged is only slightly more a measure of guilt/ blame - remember innocent until proven guilty.

What would support your argument is the number of people convicted of driving offences in fatal crashes.

I have no idea of the evidence in any of the 3 cases you refer to and it may be that the drivers were to blame. however, your measure of blame is wholly inaccurate

To arrest someone the police have to have reasonable ground to believe they committed an offence*. They can't just do a precautionary arrest just in case some evidence turns up later.

* assuming the driver isn't refusing to give his name and address and isn't about to do a runner.

 

[spen666]

Red light - you have clearly missed the point.

The police may indeed have grounds for arrest - indeed the almost certainly do in all such cases.


That is totally different from being PROOF or even EVIDENCE that the driver has committed an offence

clearly you do not believe in the presumption of innocence (for drivers) if you are citing thir arrest (because a police officer suspects they may have committed an offence) as somehow proving they are guilty.

On your logic, why bother having courts, trials etc- those arrested are automatically guilty.


Oh and the power of arrest arises if officer has reasonable grounds for SUSPECTING someone has committed an offence. This is a far far lower test than BELIEVING someone has commiiteed an offence.

 

[subaqua]

Glad you said "some". RIP to the girl who was the victim of this sad incident, but please let's not have a witch hunt on lorry drivers. I am a part time HGV driver myself, and hold a class 1 (i.e. artics) licence. True, there are some who have little regard for other road users, but just as not all cyclists are red light jumping, pavement riding cyclo-terrorists; the vast majority of lorry drivers are very aware of what they must do on the roads to keep themselves and others safe. (Sometimes it goes wrong; no-one is perfect).

The press have a lot to answer for, as usual. "Lorry driver arrested following accident" makes good reading; but often they follow it up with a photo of a rented 7.5 ton "lorry". Anyone with a car licence who passed their test before 1998 (??) can go out and hire one of these. It doesn't make them a lorry driver, and it is wrong that they can be allowed to drive one. This has now been addressed and if you passed your test after that date you have to pass an additional test for anything over 3.5 tons.

I have also seen the same headline attributed to "truck driver" and it turns out the "truck" is one of those 4x4 pick-up truck jobs. Thay can be driven on any car licence.

I wouldn't dream of starting a witch hunt on Lorry drivers. My Dad was one for many years. there are some though who like some taxi drivers really shouldn#'t be on the road.