Another +ve

[Flying_Monkey]

Michael - I am beginning to wonder why exactly you arguing against in what I have said. You now seem to be generally agreeing with me. And your whole series of posts on Cavendish now seems to havs been because there is a 'small' possibility that 'he could be' doping. Let's concentrate on the teams who are genuinely doing nothing (like Saunier Duval) rather than speculate wildly about teams who are making a serious effort (like Columbia and Garmin-Chipotle).

However I still don't get what your point is about Aldag - like most of his generation he doped. Like most he didn't say anything until be had to. These days he is involved with a team that is committed to a clean and open system. Good for him. Some of the old guard know which way the wind is blowing. With your logic you would never believe anything good of anyone who had ever done things of which we disapprove. Gerry Adams really did give up violence and help develop the peace process in Northern Ireland - if that's possible, I am sure it is possible for Aldag to manage a cycle team that tries to stamp out doping...

 

[MichaelM]

I picked up on Aldag/ Columbia as I don't like the attitude of the likes of Gary Imlach, the press, the commentators...

T mobile became became High Road which became Columbia. Following the 2006 Tour out went the old and in came the new. A statement against doping. Aldag. Who then had to own up for the past in May 07. For the 2007 Tour,T Mobile were supposed to be the new standard bearers of clean cycling. Didn't go too well. T Mobile withdrew sponsorship, in came High Road.

Despite Aldag now having (been forced to) come clean, and the events at the 07 Tour, he was kept on. Doesn't really make much of an anti doping statement (to me anyway). So High Road are now Columbia. Who seem to be praised as the standard bearers for clean cycling.

I simply do not believe it. Call me negative, call me cynical (or anything else), realistic is probably the word I'd use. I'm not the only one - Barloworld comes to mind.

CSC kept Riis at the helm through the Basso affair. Liberty Seguros became Astana.

Each day there's Ligget/Sherwen pronouncing the latest unbelievable/heroic ride by someone or another (Andy Schleck today), when things go wrong (+ve tests) they'll claim it was too good to be true anyway.....

I'm at the point where when they say "this is unbelievable" (think Voight) I think yes it probably is.

Enough of my ramblings. I enjoy it for what it is, and suspect that most of the riders are competing on an even field anyway.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Your history is correct apart from one key point: 'High Road' were not sponsors - it was (and remains) the name of the company that operates what is now Team Columbia and the name was specifically chosen to indicate a new direction - the 'high road' of clean sport as opposed to the 'low road' of doping. The testing programme they operate is independently administered (i.e.: not done in house) and approved by WADA as exemplary. So whoever is at the top and whatever they have done in the past, they can't subvert the system even if they wanted to.

BTW, Barloworld never had a coherent anti-doping scheme - some British fans just seemed to assume they were okay because they had a British connection, some British riders, and came up from below.

In the end, I still enjoy the sport regardless too...

 

[doyler78]

Here is a interesting article from a bbc investigation into potential collusion between athletes and testing facilities and also the general quality of the testing in WADA approved facilities.

It doesn't make for good read

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7516484.stm

 

[Tetedelacourse]

Sprinters don't dope? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Question: Why would a rider take CERA?
Answer: To enhance endurance performance.

The effects of CERA (or any EPO strain) are on endurance ability through increasing the body's ability to transport oxygen to the muscles. Correct? There might be no benefit to a sprinter whatsoever in taking EPO if a stage was 200m long.

Stages are not 200m long. Sprinters have less natural ability than others to get to the end of a stage (fast twitch vs slow twitch) so to say that there's no advantage to a sprinter in taking EPO is very very wrong indeed!

Cavendish has been the sprint version of Ricco this year. It's completely valid to be suspicious of his performances.

 

[mondobongo]

Cavendish has been the sprint version of Ricco this year. It's completely valid to be suspicious of his performances.

Typical British mentality build someone up put them on a pedestal and then kick it over!!

Yes there is a possibility that Cav has been naughty but I and plenty of others don't think he has because of where he has come from and who he has been nurtured by for a start and thats before you even look at the man himself. Cavendish is a real talent enjoy it.

 

[MichaelM]

Typical British mentality build someone up put them on a pedestal and then kick it over!!

I'd argue it's the likes of Imlach who are putting him on a pedastal.

Yes there is a possibility that Cav has been naughty but I and plenty of others don't think he has because of where he has come from and who he has been nurtured by for a start and thats before you even look at the man himself. Cavendish is a real talent enjoy it.

From Cycling Weekly Cavendish decided to retire after speaking at length with Columbia directeur sportif Brian Holm and his personal coach and mentor Rod Ellingworth of British Cycling.

Another one who admitted to using EPO in 2007 (though he admitted to doping in his book in 02).

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Another one who admitted to using EPO in 2007 (though he admitted to doping in his book in 02).

And I will repeat, Team Columbia and Garmin-Chipotle have an independently administered intensive testing programme run by http://www.agencyforcyclingethics.com/. If you know of any evidence that Holm or Aldag or anyone else has found a way of subverting these tests (which include a full blood passport and 26 tests a year minimum for each rider) then please let us know how. Just saying 'he used to dope' is no evidence at all because just about everyone of that generation used to dope.

So Michael and Tete, why not attack the people who are doing nothing, not the people who are doing about as much as they could?

 

[MichaelM]

Your history is correct apart from one key point: 'High Road' were not sponsors - it was (and remains) the name of the company that operates what is now Team Columbia and the name was specifically chosen to indicate a new direction - the 'high road' of clean sport as opposed to the 'low road' of doping.

If I was in charge at a company with such stated aims, I would not employ Aldag, Holm or Peiper.

Udo Bolts was another who was forced into admitting to using EPO in 07, he is reported to have resigned from Gerolsteiner as a result.

I say reported to have resigned, as either he felt an element of shame and did so of his own will, or he was forced in to it by the team. Aldag , Holm and Peiper obviously feel no such shame and High Road do not seem to aspire to achieve their own aims.

And I will repeat, Team Columbia and Garmin-Chipotle have an independently administered intensive testing programme run by http://www.agencyforcyclingethics.com/. If you know of any evidence that Holm or Aldag or anyone else has found a way of subverting these tests (which include a full blood passport and 26 tests a year minimum for each rider) then please let us know how. Just saying 'he used to dope' is no evidence at all because just about everyone of that generation used to dope.

So Michael and Tete, why not attack the people who are doing nothing, not the people who are doing about as much as they could?

The BBC report doesn't read too good depending on how much weight you want to give it.

I'm not only saying he used to dope. I'm saying not only did he dope, but he tried his best to deny/hide/muddy the issue. Set yourself out on the High Road and you need to be whiter than white.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

So basically you have nothing at all, you just don't like the fact that the teams in question employ ex-pros who used to dope back when there was a culture of doping. Who would you suggest they employed as coaches and managers instead, given that practically riding in that generation (and before) doped in some way (and probably lied about it too)? The only alternative is people who have never cycled and a lot of good that will do a cycling team...

The fact is that you have to look at what the teams are doing, and what they are doing now - that's the only way you can start to make any judgement as to whether their riders are riding clean.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

And that's it from me, because this is just starting to go round in circles.

 

[Chuffy]

It sticks in the throat somewhat to see the likes of Riis at a high level in team management but if everyone with a dodgy past was stripped out then there would be almost no-one left.

 

[Noodley]

How about if they repent and evidence they have changed? And only then are they permitted to work for a team...loads of people who work on teams still approve of it.

IIRC Riis was recently quoted as saying nobody cares anymore if he doped when he won. (don't ask for a reference as I can't remember where I read it)... Wrong!

 

[Chuffy]

How about if they repent and evidence they have changed? And only then are they permitted to work for a team...loads of people who work on teams still approve of it.

IIRC Riis was recently quoted as saying nobody cares anymore if he doped when he won. (don't ask for a reference as I can't remember where I read it)... Wrong!

Riis' attitude, so far as I can tell, seems to be 'so what, I don't give a toss' Maybe he's just arrogant but I can see why MichaelM would be uneasy about the likes of him running teams. However, if the tide really is turning towards teams having to put independent testing in place then people like him will have no choice but to play it straight.

 

[yello]

Oddly, I read that link from the beeb with a positive take.... from a purely cycling perspective. I mean, cycling is getting to grips with the problem when clearly it's not just a problem in cycling. The fact that athletes are doping, and there is purportedly collusion with testing agencies, is not good news but maybe we could say that cycling is ahead of any other sport in dealing with it by more regular testing and clear action on positives.

It crossed my mind that some men's tennis matches are pretty impressive feats of endurance. Can anyone remember who's name was mentioned during Operation Puerto? I wonder what, say, the LTA's testing policy is like?