Are we being forced to go electric?

[cougie uk]

It’s utter madness really to think that at 8yrs if your battery goes kaput that’s it . Now granted car engines can go the same way but potentially you could repair it fairly straightforward. Repairing these batteries will not be as straight forward !

It's utter madness to believe that the battery only lasts for 8 years.

What's the standard warranty on say a BMW ? Oh it's three years.

Imagine buying a BMW and having to throw it away after three years ? These ICE cars are a con.

Please educate yourself on electric cars. You're making yourself look very silly.

 

[icowden]

Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car

Nope. I can't see hydrogen power being better than electric power personally. Returning to putting something massively explosive into a car seems counterproductive.

 

[Alex321]

Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car

I'm not really convinced that hydrogen powered cars ever will be the norm. If they ever are, it will be fuel cells which are still EVs from a motive power POV.

 

[cougie uk]

Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car

1. You use more electric getting the hydrogen to put into the car than you would by just charging the battery.
2. Who is building the hydrogen network ? I only know of one hydrogen car - the Toyota one ?
3. Over 99% of my charging is on my drive for a pittance. Why would I pay more to drive somewhere to wait around to fill up ?

 

[byegad]

Batteries for an e-bike cost quite a few quid and my owners guide claims it it good for 600 charges. Whilst the use of e-cars help stop air pollution I question whether the e-battery on a car will last as long as conventional engines. I guess the replacement cost of an e-battery for a car will run into thousands of pounds. If this is the case will people will simply change their e-car rather than the battery which is great for the manufacturers but not so great for saving the earth.

I drive a Toyota hybrid. Picking the car up after service one day I asked about battery life. They know I change my car every three years or so, so I trust their answer.
They say they have changed one battery on a hybrid since the Prius came out and that battery was 12 yrs old. They give a 5 yrs warranty on the battery, increasing to 10 years if you have the car serviced by them.

This is practical experience so any worries about battery life is a red herring. The Prius came out in 1997.

 

[Alex321]

It's utter madness to believe that the battery only lasts for 8 years.

What's the standard warranty on say a BMW ? Oh it's three years.

Imagine buying a BMW and having to throw it away after three years ? These ICE cars are a con.

Please educate yourself on electric cars. You're making yourself look very silly.

Not really he wasn't.

The point isn't that they WILL go after 8 years, any more than that the ICE will die after 3.

The point was that when they do, it is a complete replacement. You can't replace the parts of the battery that have died, like you can with an ICE. And replacing the battery will cost more than replacing the whole engine would have done.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Thank you

 

[Alex321]

1. You use more electric getting the hydrogen to put into the car than you would by just charging the battery.
2. Who is building the hydrogen network ? I only know of one hydrogen car - the Toyota one ?
3. Over 99% of my charging is on my drive for a pittance. Why would I pay more to drive somewhere to wait around to fill up ?

1. Yes, any and every form of fuelling a car will have used more energy to create the "fuel" than the car gets from it. That is inevitable since we will never have 100% conversion of energy. But I would tend to agree this is more so than with conventional EVs. There are more conversion stages with hydrogen fuel-cell power than with "regular" EV power - and you can't "fuel" using your own solar power.

2. There are others than just the Toyota one.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

3. Most people do that now. Hydrogen fill ups if they become widespread will be just the same as current petrol fill ups.

As I just said, I'm not convinced they will be the future, but it isn't impossible. There are still many obstacles to be overcome for all domestic vehicles to be electric, and there would similarly be obstacles to be overcome for hydrogen power.

 

[cougie uk]

Not really he wasn't.

The point isn't that they WILL go after 8 years, any more than that the ICE will die after 3.

The point was that when they do, it is a complete replacement. You can't replace the parts of the battery that have died, like you can with an ICE. And replacing the battery will cost more than replacing the whole engine would have done.

Electric cars will outlast the lifespan of ICE cars. There's so much to go wrong with engines.


Let's look at some examples - a taxi company. That's hard miles.

However, Tesloop, a taxi service in California that maintains a fleet of Teslas and really packs on the mileage, has reported that a Model X in their fleet has only lost around 10% of capacity over 300,000 miles. 90% capacity is well within Tesla’s battery warranty terms for degradation

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

Even if you did want to replace the battery you will be spoiled for choice. Cars get crashed and written off. You can buy a reconditioned battery from companies now for a fraction of the crazy price you're quoting.

 

[fossyant]

Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car

Effectively that's what they are. The problem is producing enough hydrogen, it pretty costly presently, but it's certainly a better option for bigger vehicles.

Batteries probably here to stay for personal transport, but trucks/buses and long distance will move to hydrogen.

 

[cougie uk]

1. Yes, any and every form of fuelling a car will have used more energy to create the "fuel" than the car gets from it. That is inevitable since we will never have 100% conversion of energy. But I would tend to agree this is more so than with conventional EVs. There are more conversion stages with hydrogen fuel-cell power than with "regular" EV power - and you can't "fuel" using your own solar power.

2. There are others than just the Toyota one.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

3. Most people do that now. Hydrogen fill ups if they become widespread will be just the same as current petrol fill ups.

As I just said, I'm not convinced they will be the future, but it isn't impossible. There are still many obstacles to be overcome for all domestic vehicles to be electric, and there would similarly be obstacles to be overcome for hydrogen power.

So there's two hydrogen car models now as opposed to the 300 plus EV models ? Well thanks for clearing that up.

And there's 12 hydrogen stations.

I know what I would bet on being the more successful solution for cars.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Effectively that's what they are. The problem is producing enough hydrogen, it pretty costly presently, but it's certainly a better option for bigger vehicles.

Batteries probably here to stay for personal transport, but trucks/buses and long distance will move to hydrogen.

A big win would be to progress the current studies aimed at producing energy from CO2.

I think part of the problem is that politicians and issue groups are driving measures, rather than scientists and engineers.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Electric cars will outlast the lifespan of ICE cars. There's so much to go wrong with engines.


Let's look at some examples - a taxi company. That's hard miles.

However, Tesloop, a taxi service in California that maintains a fleet of Teslas and really packs on the mileage, has reported that a Model X in their fleet has only lost around 10% of capacity over 300,000 miles. 90% capacity is well within Tesla’s battery warranty terms for degradation

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

Even if you did want to replace the battery you will be spoiled for choice. Cars get crashed and written off. You can buy a reconditioned battery from companies now for a fraction of the crazy price you're quoting.

That’s assuming the battery is looked after if it doesn’t matter then that’s good news !

 

[BrumJim]

1. Yes, any and every form of fuelling a car will have used more energy to create the "fuel" than the car gets from it. That is inevitable since we will never have 100% conversion of energy. But I would tend to agree this is more so than with conventional EVs. There are more conversion stages with hydrogen fuel-cell power than with "regular" EV power - and you can't "fuel" using your own solar power.

2. There are others than just the Toyota one.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

3. Most people do that now. Hydrogen fill ups if they become widespread will be just the same as current petrol fill ups.

As I just said, I'm not convinced they will be the future, but it isn't impossible. There are still many obstacles to be overcome for all domestic vehicles to be electric, and there would similarly be obstacles to be overcome for hydrogen power.

The real problem with hydrogen is that it is so light. It is energy dense, but very, very low physical density. Hence to get it to a volume where it is storable in a car you need to squash and cool it an awful lot, and this is energy you never get back.

We are looking at hydrogen for the rail industry (mostly for fuel cells, although someone needs to address the large number of diesel units running around), and the problem areas are storage and efficiency. Hyrdrogen is simple to make using spare energy (e.g. at nights or from on-site solar and wind-power), but putting it somewhere is going to take up space that isn't normally available on a depot, but looking at the system efficiency, it looks like a big waste of power. However this will have to be balanced against the cost of putting up lots of overhead wires, particularly on very lightly used routes.

 

[BrumJim]

A big win would be to progress the current studies aimed at producing energy from CO2.

I think part of the problem is that politicians and issue groups are driving measures, rather than scientists and engineers.

Energy from CO2? That sounds like one of those perpetual machine inventions. Where does the O2 go2?