Are we being forced to go electric?

[MrGrumpy]

way off the mark best selling Tesla
View attachment 619005

that is still a lot of cash !

 

[figbat]

Don't think so.

Inciteful.

Thermodynamics is against you with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that although there's lots of it about, it is all connected to something else. Put two hydrogens with an oxygen and we have water - well there's plenty of that about so great, we have all the hydrogen we need! Ah, but wait - why is there so much water about? Might it be because it is so chemically stable that it just hangs about a lot? Well yes, it is. It takes a great deal of energy to separate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule - that's what makes water so stable and abundant. It takes even more energy to strip the second hydrogen off.

But, we can do it so if we do now we have two Hs and an O - brilliant, we can simply burn the hydrogen in the oxygen and get energy! Well, yes you can, but you get less energy back from that reaction than you used to strip the hydrogens off in the first place, notwithstanding any yield and efficiency losses. Burning hydrogen to get energy will get you the most energy out of your hydrogen; running it through a fuel cell effectively does the same thing - the transfer of electrons from the hydrogen to the oxygen but through an intermediary so the energy score will be the same at best - a net loss. If you can power this process by solar/wind/waves/whatever then you can start winning, but to do this at scale requires a lot of energy in the right place for a predictable and sustainable time.

Perhaps there is another source of hydrogen? Yes, we can use ammonia (NH3) as a hydrogen source which is a better thermodynamic story but where do you get the ammonia from? It doesn't hang around in nature much so for large scale amounts we'd need to make it. Ammonia is a large chemical business already and feeds all sort of processes, but it needs energy to work and ammonia is not the nicest stuff to have around the place - toxic and flammable, plus not very nice smelling.

How about hydrocarbons? We could strip the hydrogen from those! Yes, we could, but then you have two problems: (1) you need a hydrocarbon to start with and (2) you're left with a big pile of carbon-rich output to deal with. Not as CO2 (yay!) but as a coke-type residue (boo!!).

The reason hydrocarbons work so well for us over the short time period we have been using it is that the energy input to create the molecules has already happened, millions of years ago, powered by the solar system. The energy has been stored for us and we're releasing it. Sustainable alternatives like hydrogen require us to shortcut the process by aeons, which is the tricky bit and which thermodynamics has put some limits on.

 

[CXRAndy]

I must admit, Its one of nice benefits where I haven't needed to go to a petrol station in such a long time,

Queue-what's that.

that is still a lot of cash !

It maybe and you're one of the unlucky folk who cant or wont pay that for a vehicle. However I see far more new Tesla model 3 than any other BEV on the road. This is backed up by the fact they have been topping UK sales figures.

Have you seen the market share OCT month comparison from 2020 to '21 for BEV its jumped from 6.6% to 15.2%. That huge growth.

86% growth year on year. In just a few years more than 50% will be BEV on UK roads. Now the UK is actually lagging way behind other countries in take up.

Slightly skewed, but remember when apple tried to stop the proliferation of Android phones taking over the market. In just 5 years Android had crushed apple in market share and still control 75%.

That is what I expect BEV to do to ICE sales in a similar time frame.

for anyone thinking of a BEV, get one soon, the tax breaks, and cheap running will fade when government starts losing revenue from cars

 

[ianrauk]

We've just had a Vauxhall Mokka E for a long weekend whilst our car was in their garage.
We went to Ikea on sunday knowing there were charging points there. 6 spaces. Each space with an electric vehicle in. But only one vehicle being charged.
Went to Tescos after. 8 places. All 8 taken, 5 not charging their vehicle. Local high street. 2 places, both taken by cars, this time both being charged.
In the end we went to my partners work at a garden center. Where there was space.

So, what's the protocol for electric vehicle charging spaces. It seems that electric vehicle drivers view them as a parking space whether you are charging or not.
There's going to be a heck of a lot more charging points needed sooner rather than later to alleviate that problem.

We had to go to a charging point as we live in a flat so no can charge from home.

Apart from that, my partner absolutely loved the drive of the car. But.. if she was to change her car to an electric one, it would be a hybrid rather then a fully electric, due to the charging problems we have/had.

 

[BrumJim]

Other big problem with hydrogen is storage. It has a very high energy density, but a very low density.

In order to squeeze it into a cylinder that is practical to have on a car, lorry, train, etc, you need to consume a lot of energy, and hence overall efficiency drops.

Yes, practically battery is far easier to implement. There is already an electricity distribution system around, although it may take a few tweaks to make it practical and accessible. However it wasn't that long ago that all our pavements were being dug up for cable TV, and so glad now that we have a fibre network almost to the front door. There is an option for Murphys to be seen around here again digging up multiple trenches from houses to kerb stones with integrated charging points. Maybe not the best idea, but there will be something else suitable along soon.

Hydrogen distribution? They either feed it through the gas main (sounds like a bigger change than from town to natural gas) or at filling stations, but again the changes required for storing such a volatile gas at high pressures and low temperatures isn't going to be that easy.

 

[CXRAndy]

Went to Tescos after. 8 places. All 8 taken, 5 not charging their vehicle. Local high street. 2 places, both taken by cars, this time both being charged.
In the end we went to my partners work at a garden center. Where there was space.

This is called Ice-ing or ICE'd. Its highly ignorant of non BEV owners to take an EV charging point. I never park in an EV charging station if I'm not charging. Even hybrids its also poor courtesy.

I took my wife to a nice hotel. It had 3 allocated charging stations. We charged first night, went out next day and a big ICE car had taken one of the charging bays. Fortunately the leads were long enough for me to connect to my vehicle if I left my car in front of this ICE car. Because we were driving a long way home I needed a big charge. The driver had to wait whilst I had my breakfast and showered to go home. He may think about it in future.

When there are literally hundred at supermarkets, the issue fades away

 

[figbat]

My own experience of public charging is limited but here goes:

I have only charged in public 4 times and three of those were simply to test the concept and for novelty's sake. So far I have spent precisely £0.00 on public charging since all of them have been free. The one time I really needed a charge to get home was in Oxford - they have 50 EV charging spaces in the Westgate centre car park and they are free; of course you pay for parking but then you would anyway, regardless of your car type. I parked up in one of the numerous available spaces, plugged in and walked away - no app, no card, no button, just plug and play. I went to see Deacon Blue at the New Theatre (fantastic gig by the way) then walked back to my car which was almost full, unplugged it, packed the cable away and drove off. And the car was nicely warmed-up to boot.

The other charging occasions have been in either a Tesco or town centre shopping car park - these were Pod Point units which require you to confirm your charge via their (free to use) app within 15 minutes of plugging in. Again, no fuss and spaces were available. To be honest, if there's free charging to be had anywhere I will take it, regardless of how much battery I have left - it's like getting free fuel so why wouldn't you? Of course I know it is costing somebody/everybody along the line but I'm happy to take advantage.

In terms of etiquette, my car will signal to me via its own app when it is expecting to be full and again when it is full. If I am able I will then go back to the car and move it.

So far the only small gripe I have is having to deal with a wet cable and put it under the boot floor, which requires the boot to be largely empty to access.

 

[Alex321]

but it will be at least 15 years before almost everybody is driving electric cars.

There is a tipping point, snowball effect, whatever metaphor you care to use, when suddenly the transition to a new system has taken over. Just go and look at the EV take over the last 5 years. This is the change this year, you can see percentage wise EVs are making huge gains at the expense of ICE

They are. But that is new car sales. Most of the cars on the road are a few years old, and it will still take a few years before BEV sales actually overtake ICE sales. That is why I suggested about 15 years before it is almost entirely Electric cars on the road. In 8 years time, it will be almost entirely BEVs sold new - hybrids will still be allowed for a few years, but knowing that won't be long, I can't see many manufacturers putting much effort into those for the UK market.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Unlike ICE vehicles where every part is simply wished into existence without any environmental consequence....
[/QUOTE

We've just had a Vauxhall Mokka E for a long weekend whilst our car was in their garage.
We went to Ikea on sunday knowing there were charging points there. 6 spaces. Each space with an electric vehicle in. But only one vehicle being charged.
Went to Tescos after. 8 places. All 8 taken, 5 not charging their vehicle. Local high street. 2 places, both taken by cars, this time both being charged.
In the end we went to my partners work at a garden center. Where there was space.

So, what's the protocol for electric vehicle charging spaces. It seems that electric vehicle drivers view them as a parking space whether you are charging or not.
There's going to be a heck of a lot more charging points needed sooner rather than later to alleviate that problem.

We had to go to a charging point as we live in a flat so no can charge from home.

Apart from that, my partner absolutely loved the drive of the car. But.. if she was to change her car to an electric one, it would be a hybrid rather then a fully electric, due to the charging problems we have/had.

these were some of the issues raised in the Dispatches program. Hybrid seems like a better stop gap for now.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Because we were driving a long way home I needed a big charge. The driver had to wait whilst I had my breakfast and showered to go home. He may think about it in future.

I just drove home on the half tank of fuel I still had left

ok I’m jesting but that’s probably quite common at the moment. I’ve seen it myself in car parks. EVs parked up some not on charge. Worse still are Tesla drivers whom have their own network slumming it with the riff raff and using those chargers . Long way to go but I’m sure they will get there.

 

[CXRAndy]

I just drove home on the half tank of fuel I still had left

ok I’m jesting but that’s probably quite common at the moment. I’ve seen it myself in car parks. EVs parked up some not on charge. Worse still are Tesla drivers whom have their own network slumming it with the riff raff and using those chargers . Long way to go but I’m sure they will get there.

Money I saved on fuel we had a slap up meal. Swings and roundabouts

 

[figbat]

Inciteful.

Thermodynamics is against you with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that although there's lots of it about, it is all connected to something else. Put two hydrogens with an oxygen and we have water - well there's plenty of that about so great, we have all the hydrogen we need! Ah, but wait - why is there so much water about? Might it be because it is so chemically stable that it just hangs about a lot? Well yes, it is. It takes a great deal of energy to separate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule - that's what makes water so stable and abundant. It takes even more energy to strip the second hydrogen off.

But, we can do it so if we do now we have two Hs and an O - brilliant, we can simply burn the hydrogen in the oxygen and get energy! Well, yes you can, but you get less energy back from that reaction than you used to strip the hydrogens off in the first place, notwithstanding any yield and efficiency losses. Burning hydrogen to get energy will get you the most energy out of your hydrogen; running it through a fuel cell effectively does the same thing - the transfer of electrons from the hydrogen to the oxygen but through an intermediary so the energy score will be the same at best - a net loss. If you can power this process by solar/wind/waves/whatever then you can start winning, but to do this at scale requires a lot of energy in the right place for a predictable and sustainable time.

Perhaps there is another source of hydrogen? Yes, we can use ammonia (NH3) as a hydrogen source which is a better thermodynamic story but where do you get the ammonia from? It doesn't hang around in nature much so for large scale amounts we'd need to make it. Ammonia is a large chemical business already and feeds all sort of processes, but it needs energy to work and ammonia is not the nicest stuff to have around the place - toxic and flammable, plus not very nice smelling.

How about hydrocarbons? We could strip the hydrogen from those! Yes, we could, but then you have two problems: (1) you need a hydrocarbon to start with and (2) you're left with a big pile of carbon-rich output to deal with. Not as CO2 (yay!) but as a coke-type residue (boo!!).

The reason hydrocarbons work so well for us over the short time period we have been using it is that the energy input to create the molecules has already happened, millions of years ago, powered by the solar system. The energy has been stored for us and we're releasing it. Sustainable alternatives like hydrogen require us to shortcut the process by aeons, which is the tricky bit and which thermodynamics has put some limits on.

In fact I did the maths a few years ago during a similar online debate. Here's what I wrote then (tweaked for current context):

The average dissociation energy of the H-O bond in water is 458.9 kJ/mol. This means that to strip the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom takes 458.9 kJ of energy for one mole of water. 1 mole of water is around 18 grams.

So, 1 g of water needs 27.4 kJ energy to strip apart.

1 g of water will yield around 0.11 g of hydrogen, which will exist as the H2 molecule. 0.11 g of H2 gas is around 0.055 moles. The energy of combustion for hydrogen is 286 kJ/mol. So burning our 0.055 mol of hydrogen gas will yield us 15.88 kJ of energy.

So for an 27.4 kJ input, we get a 15.88 kJ return. At 100% efficiency.

This was a fag packet calculation so please feel free to check my workings. If I'm right, even at the first stage, look how much energy we need to get hydrogen out of water. For a kilogram of water we need 27.4 megajoules. Scale up to a tonne are we are in gigajoule territory, with no Mr Fusion or lightning strikes to power it.

 

[Biker man]

Inciteful.

Thermodynamics is against you with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that although there's lots of it about, it is all connected to something else. Put two hydrogens with an oxygen and we have water - well there's plenty of that about so great, we have all the hydrogen we need! Ah, but wait - why is there so much water about? Might it be because it is so chemically stable that it just hangs about a lot? Well yes, it is. It takes a great deal of energy to separate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule - that's what makes water so stable and abundant. It takes even more energy to strip the second hydrogen off.

But, we can do it so if we do now we have two Hs and an O - brilliant, we can simply burn the hydrogen in the oxygen and get energy! Well, yes you can, but you get less energy back from that reaction than you used to strip the hydrogens off in the first place, notwithstanding any yield and efficiency losses. Burning hydrogen to get energy will get you the most energy out of your hydrogen; running it through a fuel cell effectively does the same thing - the transfer of electrons from the hydrogen to the oxygen but through an intermediary so the energy score will be the same at best - a net loss. If you can power this process by solar/wind/waves/whatever then you can start winning, but to do this at scale requires a lot of energy in the right place for a predictable and sustainable time.

Perhaps there is another source of hydrogen? Yes, we can use ammonia (NH3) as a hydrogen source which is a better thermodynamic story but where do you get the ammonia from? It doesn't hang around in nature much so for large scale amounts we'd need to make it. Ammonia is a large chemical business already and feeds all sort of processes, but it needs energy to work and ammonia is not the nicest stuff to have around the place - toxic and flammable, plus not very nice smelling.

How about hydrocarbons? We could strip the hydrogen from those! Yes, we could, but then you have two problems: (1) you need a hydrocarbon to start with and (2) you're left with a big pile of carbon-rich output to deal with. Not as CO2 (yay!) but as a coke-type residue (boo!!).

The reason hydrocarbons work so well for us over the short time period we have been using it is that the energy input to create the molecules has already happened, millions of years ago, powered by the solar system. The energy has been stored for us and we're releasing it. Sustainable alternatives like hydrogen require us to shortcut the process by aeons, which is the tricky bit and which thermodynamics has put some limits on.

I have no doubt what you say is correct but I think with luck ways to overcome these problems ,if all vehicles were electric you would need a awful lot of electric to charge them up and what will the power stations use.

 

[Alex321]

I have no doubt what you say is correct but I think with luck ways to overcome these problems ,if all vehicles were electric you would need a awful lot of electric to charge them up and what will the power stations use.

It would take a lot more electricity to extract sufficient hydrogen. There really is no realistic chance we will be going down that route for private cars.

 

[Biker man]

It would take a lot more electricity to extract sufficient hydrogen. There really is no realistic chance we will be going down that route for private cars.

Think Toyota disagrees with you.