Are we being forced to go electric?

[roubaixtuesday]

No I don’t have a very strange view of what happens to either lead acid or Li-ion batteries, you can expect between 500 to 1000 full charges from a Li-ion battery, now if that EV has been a company car doing high mileage with let’s say a range of 180 miles real world driving as an average through winter & summer with heating or a/c on as required , along with lighting and in car entertainment being used, at 100,000 miles it’s had 555 full charges, so it will have started to degrade in available range, so consequently it has to be recharged more often, at lets say 4 years old when the car is returned to lease company and ends up on the used car forecourt you can see at best it’s used over half it’s expected life span, possibly even more, so as the range becomes less and less your using up the remaining lifespan even quicker, now as for complicated drive train on ICE’s , EV’s also have a reduction gear between the traction motor and the wheels, which can and do break, the car, particularly in the 4WD variants won’t have a differential, instead they rely on electronics to slow the drive to the inside wheel when cornering, the speed sensors and control ECU’s can fail, speed sensor bearings in traction motors can fail, resulting in the vehicle driving slowly and feeling like it’s literally shaking itself to bits, as can heat sensors, so the car thinks the motor is overheating, the A/C chopper box (the bit that turns DC battery power to A/C) can fail, generally losing one of the three phases to the motor is most common, it’s not fault free running electrical vehicles, all of the above will lead to huge repair bills, both in time consuming labour and expensive replacement parts

Ranty style aside, you seem to agree with me AFAICT; no issue with batteries up to 100k miles, and no significant issue to 200k miles.

 

[Alex321]

Is that really a realistic life time, for a car these days?

For a diesel or an EV, yes. My last 3 diesel estates have al done between 230K and 250K before I got rid of them

 

[classic33]

Are you suggesting too long or too short?

Having been in one car that clocked a 1,000,000 miles, and was still in use a year later...

Uneconomic repair required, after being hit by a bull, took it off the road.

 

[classic33]

For a diesel or an EV, yes. My last 3 diesel estates have al done between 230K and 250K before I got rid of them

You wanting to swap isn't the same thing as a realistic lifetime.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Having been in one car that clocked a 1,000,000 miles, and was still in use a year later...

Uneconomic repair required, after being hit by a bull, took it off the road.

Sure, but that's completely irrelevant to the question of what's an average lifetime mileage.

According to this, only a quarter of cars on the road have mileage >100k. Which would suggest there's no way the average lifetime can be >200k?

 

[classic33]

Sure, but that's completely irrelevant to the question of what's an average lifetime mileage.

According to this, only a quarter of cars on the road have mileage >100k. Which would suggest there's no way the average lifetime can be >200k?

Other than it "clocking over", there was nothing great about the mileage according to the owner.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Other than it "clocking over", there was nothing great about the mileage according to the owner.

Sure, but again, how is this relevant to how long an average car is run?

 

[DRM]

Ranty style aside, you seem to agree with me AFAICT; no issue with batteries up to 100k miles, and no significant issue to 200k miles.

Also don’t forget that a Li-ion battery can be ruined by not being charged, as can happen when off lease vehicles are collected , then put into storage prior to going to auction, many ex fleet vehicles will be dropped off at the place of work, swapped for the replacement, then can stand for a quite a while until collection is arranged, then they are taken to an auction site, valeted and put through a sale, then taken off to be sold by the dealer, this whole process can take a fair while to go through, I’ll put money on it nobody will charge it whist it’s between owners

 

[icowden]

Also don’t forget that a Li-ion battery can be ruined by not being charged, as can happen when off lease vehicles are collected ,

You do know that EV batteries aren't just bigger versions of laptop batteries right? There is quite a lot of tech that manages the battery to try to make sure it doesn't just stop working. Most experts seem to agree that if you are putting an EV in storage it should be charged between 50% and 80%. Many EV's also have a deep sleep or power save mode that will stop the car from going too flat if it is in long term use.

 

[Alex321]

You wanting to swap isn't the same thing as a realistic lifetime.

It means a realistic lifetime is at least that long.

 

[CXRAndy]

Also don’t forget that a Li-ion battery can be ruined by not being charged, as can happen when off lease vehicles are collected , then put into storage prior to going to auction, many ex fleet vehicles will be dropped off at the place of work, swapped for the replacement, then can stand for a quite a while until collection is arranged, then they are taken to an auction site, valeted and put through a sale, then taken off to be sold by the dealer, this whole process can take a fair while to go through, I’ll put money on it nobody will charge it whist it’s between owners

Lithium battery can be stored for a very long time with around 50% of capacity. It's when they're allowed to fully drain ageing or failure occurs. I store my Tesla in winter around 50%. It remains connected to the charger all the time. The cars electronics periodically charge and discharge a small amount to test the batteries

 

[DRM]

Which shows they daren't apply too harsh a "penalty" on petrol and diesel vehicles, at local level.

Exactly, terrified of upsetting the people who vote for them, it's a complete waste of time as a scheme, as private cars are the biggest cause of pollution there, every day at peak times traffic is nose to tail, it even backs up on the M62 onto the M606, which at time is at a standstill, these should be the target of a pollution charge as well, as a city, Bradford has no easy access in or out in any direction, not helped by the car culture there where it's cool to have a high performance, usually german car, that gets driven appallingly

 

[DRM]

You do know that EV batteries aren't just bigger versions of laptop batteries right? There is quite a lot of tech that manages the battery to try to make sure it doesn't just stop working. Most experts seem to agree that if you are putting an EV in storage it should be charged between 50% and 80%. Many EV's also have a deep sleep or power save mode that will stop the car from going too flat if it is in long term use.

I know all about Lead/Acid and Li-ion batteries, when they get put into sleep mode by the control system, you need to go in with the manufacturers software to get it going again, usually at great expense, hence why I said up thread that when the cars are returned, if the person returning it thinks sod that, I'm not paying to charge it if there's enough charge to get back to the office to collect their new car, then it goes on a car transporter to storage, sits around for a while before being auctioned, hey presto the perfect situation for a battery that will shut itself down.
Actually they are exactly the same as a laptop battery, just more of them, connected in such a manner to give the correct voltage and current output to make car move for the required range in the design spec, if you want more range, you need more cells connected in parallel to give the required current, off the top of my head I believe EV's have batteries that are around 400 to 600 volts, and current output of between 30 to 90 Kwh's, making the current consumption less, and it also charges faster.

 

[cougie uk]

Is that really a realistic life time, for a car these days?

How many 200,000 mile cars do you see ? I'd say that's gonna be less than 5% of vehicles.

 

[Milkfloat]

I can't see how this can be true, I paid £6,500 for our car 8 years ago, it's still worth £2,000 so over the 8 years it's cost me £4,000 if I'd leased at £400 per month, £4,800 a year, total cost £38,400 with no asset.

I pay £122 per month on a BMW, including the deposit this is amortised at £179 a month. The company I work for demand a car that is a maximum of 3 years old, so normally the depreciation would totally kill me, leasing it is someone else's problem. The trick is to go for the cheapest deal and not be fussy in the exact car you want and stay away from the options. Having said that, at the moment there are no good deals on leasing due to the chip shortage.