Armstrong charged and banned

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Leaving aside the reference to the federal investigation (which I'm assuming gave the result you wanted, no?), I think the reason people remind you of process is illustrated by your above statement.

That is, you have decided that the federal investigation is "more fair" than the USADA one. The reason you have decided that is immaterial really. You're entitled to that view, as erroneous as it may or may not be. Thing is, you thinking that counts for squat.

USADA have been challenged in court by sanctioned athletes before (from memory, around 60 times) and the US federal government have seen no reason to dismantle USADA nor question their authority or remit. And with all due respect, it's what they think that counts here.



Again; who says it's "not fair"? You do. The US government disagrees. Tell me, who should I side with? Further, it was intentional - they deliberately set it up that way.

Seriously, you have to understand the difference, and why there is a difference, between a court of law and USADA. You're going to bang your head against a wall otherwise.
With all due respect Yello, you're the one doing the headbanging. Redlight has been told this repeatedly but either doesn't care or isn't bright enough to understand. He's happily nodding along to his pearls of wisdom and you're the one with a headache. It's good that everything he's come out with (see also Cunobelin's posts) has been comprehensively rebutted with actual facts, not just grumpy rhetoric, but it's probably time to acknowledge that there's no point wasting key strokes on these fools.
 
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yello

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I consider it my mission in life to bring light. ;)

In truth, it doesn't bother me to cover old ground. It actually helps my own thinking rather than being frustrating... but point taken, I'll rein it in for the sake of others! :laugh:
 
Wasting valuable keyboard time here people - get out in the sun and leave Redders to his willful idiocy.

Dunno 'bout you but I'm out and about enjoying the sunshine leaving you wilfully wasting your time at a keyboard. Wonder how many words you've posted in this thread versus me?
 
With all due respect Yello, you're the one doing the headbanging. Redlight has been told this repeatedly but either doesn't care or isn't bright enough to understand. He's happily nodding along to his pearls of wisdom and you're the one with a headache. It's good that everything he's come out with (see also Cunobelin's posts) has been comprehensively rebutted with actual facts, not just grumpy rhetoric, but it's probably time to acknowledge that there's no point wasting key strokes on these fools.

What was it Cicero said? If you have no basis for an argument abuse the plaintiff? You really do yourself no favours by trying to do character assassinations rather than addressing the issues or just keeping schtumm.
 
Leaving aside the reference to the federal investigation (which I'm assuming gave the result you wanted, no?)

i don't really care what the result it to be honest. I won't change my life one bit. But its clear that it will send you and Chuffers either into paroxsysms of delight or the depths of despair. Which i guess is why the two of you spend so much time on here arguing it and in Chuffer's case hurling abuse at those who don't sign up to the cult of the absolute guilt of Armstrong. At the moment all we know is that no case in Court or under the adjudication of the sporting bodies has stood up to examination. As for USADA we'll just have to wait and see if its a rehash of all the old stuff, a load of hearsay or a stunning new revelation.
 
In the case of Mayweather v Pacqiuao the domestic case partially relies on drugs test results, yet despite court subpoenas they have refused to release results and has even gone to court to have this decision upheld!

The case makes interesting reading!

Also look at the case of Latasha Jenkins and Inigo Landaluce where poor techniques by labs have resulted in successfully overturned cases.

Now I know that this will be deemed irrelevant, but the point will remain that the conduct of the USADA, the labs conducting the tests and test veracity will be factors in the case and if Armstrong is found guilty gives him all the evidence needed to launch a successful appeal.

Which is of course the worst scenario.
 
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yello

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Now I know that this will be deemed irrelevant, but the point will remain that the conduct of the USADA, the labs conducting the tests and test veracity will be factors in the case and if Armstrong is found guilty gives him all the evidence needed to launch a successful appeal.

I'm not in a position to know whether those cases will be relevant or not. I've not read mention of them before. I'm sure if they are then Armstrong's defence team will make use of them at some point.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I fully expect Armstrong to launch some kind of appeal should he get sanctioned but clearly he has to go through the USADA process first. Whether that appeal (first with CAS and then wherever might follow that) overturns the USADA decision is another matter though.
 
Whether that appeal (first with CAS and then wherever might follow that) overturns the USADA decision is another matter though.

Its interesting that CAS have just overturned FIFA's ban of Mohamed Bin Hamman because there was "no direct evidence", even though there was witness testimony and physical evidence, of his alleged bribery.
 
I'm not in a position to know whether those cases will be relevant or not. I've not read mention of them before. I'm sure if they are then Armstrong's defence team will make use of them at some point.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I fully expect Armstrong to launch some kind of appeal should he get sanctioned but clearly he has to go through the USADA process first. Whether that appeal (first with CAS and then wherever might follow that) overturns the USADA decision is another matter though.

If you do nothing else skim the last few pages of Lessons from USADA v. Jenkins: You Can’t Win When You Beat a Monopoly

The "it's not a court of law" statements above are of course true, butthis article explamins why legal advocates have concerns over just that!

The system fails to protect the athletes basic rights in a court of law.

The story of USADA v. Jenkins reveals a system created by a monopoly that wields power without sufficient restriction or balance. The system’s current flaws can be addressed by adopting the above specific suggestions. However, as much as athletes would like to be optimistic, those suggestions are not likely to be adopted or sustained until the monopoly’s powers are countervailed in one of three ways:

(1) The legal fiction that sustains the monopoly, namely the theory of voluntary association, is replaced with a legal doctrine that recognizes the monopolistic power of sports governing bodies; or

(2) An athletes’ union with genuine bargaining power is organized, perhaps starting with United States based union organized under U.S. Labor Law; or

(3) A court finds that USADA (and potentially other National Anti-Organizations) is a state actor and that participation in sports is a property right that can only be taken away through constitutionally restrained methods.

So whether you wish to dismiss the concerns over the USADA'as ill educated, there are senior members of the the US legal system who share the concerns.

Secondly the mention of appeals, this is another common mistake amongst us ill-educated and ill-informed, when we point out that another major concern is that you cannot appeal to the USADA, any appeals are heard by the CAS ( The Court of Arbitration for Sport) who have already sat on the USADA and ae fully advised bythe USADA. There is no independent appeal, in fact theoretically it is possible that two of the three person panel finding the individual guilty can actually hear an appeal against their own decision, and in a best case scenario will still have an (alleged) interest in holding up the original decision

.. and I am afraid you are mistaken with the statement "first with CAS and then wherever might follow that" USADA have closed down the appeal process. After CAS there is no right of appeal, USADA can bring the same case as many times as they like (they wrote out double jeopardy) yet the athlete can only appeal once to a possibly biased hearing!


By all means those who think the USADA is a knight in shinng armor may continue to do so, byt the previously dismissed points about their dirty tricks and their failure to meet basic legal and constitutional standards are sooner or later going ti bite them

Latasha Jenkins case was won by a lecturer and four law students, with an experienced and unscrupulous operator like Armstrong, and a ferocious legal team there is a lot for them to be worried about.

If Armstrong can voice and raise the legitimate concerns held by others in the legal system about USADA and iyt's procedures, this may yet end up with USADA on trial instead!
 

raindog

er.....
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Bloody hell, Brad just won the TdeF and Cav just got the sprint for the 4th year running on the Champs and you're still quibbling about this?
 
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yello

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I'll read in more detail later but at first glance I'd say the process worked. LaTasha Jenkins attended a hearing, presented her case and the review panel found in her favour; the testing lab made a procedural error and USADA were unable to prove that the violation hadn't undermined the test results. Armstrong has nothing to fear from the review panel.
 
You're assuming that these two are interested in cycling?

Depends upon what you call an interest?

Wiggins and Cavendish?

If we were in the US then it would have been different.

Cavendish missed a drugs test in 2011

USADA have on at least one occasion decided on a six month suspension for this....had we been under USADA's jurusdiction, then there is a chance we would not have been celebrating Cavendish's fourth win!
 

PaulB

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Depends upon what you call an interest?

Wiggins and Cavendish?

If we were in the US then it would have been different.

Cavendish missed a drugs test in 2011

USADA have on at least one occasion decided on a six month suspension for this....had we been under USADA's jurusdiction, then there is a chance we would not have been celebrating Cavendish's fourth win!
What a sad, pedantic misery-guts you are. There's nothing like spreading your doom-and-gloom and hoping everyone catches it, is there? FFS!
 
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