Flying_Monkey
Recyclist
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- Odawa
Yeah, I can appreciate this as I too often give my family friends half a million dollars via Swiss front companies...
Armstrong charged and banned
- Thread starter yello
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Yeah, I can appreciate this as I too often give my family friends half a million dollars via Swiss front companies...
lukesdad
Guest
Smokin Joe
Squire
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- Bare headed cyclist, Smoker
Far from making the TdF exciting and watchable Armstrong made it exceedingly dull as his entire team powered away at the front preventing any attacks for stage after stage. Fair enough if they did it on mineral water, but...Yello, it's perhaps a shame that many others are less open minded to others opinions than you!
Red Light, I don't doubt that - Micheal Jackson is another example of this, in my opinion... but that's a whole other can of worms!)
Without doubt I think anyone could agree with this...... up to a particular point, all LA did was bring the world of pro cycling into sharp focus around the world. Long before there were allegations of him doping, he DID, undoubtedly, and perhaps in the eyes of many, (uneducated in the world of pro cycling) 'make' the TdF watchable, exciting, and even take up cycling again. I count myself in that group - I bought a racer, rode many miles, did the L2B, got fitter, began reading here at CC, enjoyed a new past-time in my life (which continues still) watched the TdF's, World class races on TV, enjoyed the Wiggins/Millar/Cav. All due to him, or maybe the TV hype of him.
I wonder how many others he has inspired, not just cycling, but in their lives through the cancer recovery.
It's interesting in any case - whatever anyone's opinion......
lukesdad
Guest
They were a lot more exciting than last years tour and probably this years too.
smutchin
Cat 6 Racer
- Location
- The Red Enclave
Remind you of any other Teams in the lead up to previous TdF's?
See, that's exactly the kind of baseless innuendo I have no time for. (Appreciate you're probably being a bit tongue in cheek though.)
d.
stoatsngroats
Legendary Member
- Location
- South East
That may be a fair point Smokin' Joe, but I seem to remember many exciting moments, enough to make me watch TdF a year later.
I don't even know which teams race these days, and I can only assume that Cav, Wiggins, perhaps Millar are in the 2012 TdF - but I wouldn't lay any bets. If I've been a victim of the Armstrong effect, so be it - I liked the TdF because of his tenacity; bike skills ( I forget his name, but the rider who fell in front of him, and he took off across the field); discipline etc. But also the TV coverage, scenery, pain, sportsmanship, commentary and wit.
I realise there are others in the TdF, can't remember many now tho.....
stoatsngroats
Legendary Member
- Location
- South East
That's the one - I found this incident memorable, I have no doubt that many other riders could have achieved similar evasive action, but it happened to be LA, and I seemed to remember that it was critical for La to finish close to someone further up the road, or close behind.....
Now, I have to take exception to that. So many moments it's hard to recall them all but Voecklers defence of his lead, the moment he went into someone's driveaway, the Schlecks attack, Evans defence of it, cracking, recovering and dragging himself back up, Contador cracking, loads of stuff.
As exciting as watching Riise give the look to Indurain before powering off, Pantani rising up a mtn, Indurain tt'ing to another win, Armstrong faking bonking and then blowing Ullrich away, well no...... no wait, yes. Much more so, because those moments were real, not faked out by juiced up riders (Schlecks excepted but they lost).
lukesdad
Guest
We obviously have a different definition of excitement Crax
The Voeckler break being a good example teams couldn t decide what to do, even after discussing it with their DS at length over radios, sorry i don t call that excitement. The Beloki example given earlier was edge of the seat stuff, as were the LA/Pantani/ Ulrich/ Basso duels. Yes they may have been juiced up, but there was none of the looking at each other bullshit we get now. FFS
The Voeckler break being a good example teams couldn t decide what to do, even after discussing it with their DS at length over radios, sorry i don t call that excitement. The Beloki example given earlier was edge of the seat stuff, as were the LA/Pantani/ Ulrich/ Basso duels. Yes they may have been juiced up, but there was none of the looking at each other bullshit we get now. FFS
swansonj
Guru
This thread has moved on a couple of pages while I've been out to dinner, so this now feels like ancient history. But: I agree with you. I'm not claiming my post was particularly profound or insightful, but I did feel it made a minor point about an aspect of the Armstrong debate that fitted with the direction the thread as a whole had taken at that point. I had in fact been following all the thread up to that point but I recognised most of the contributors were more knowledgeable than me so hadn't contributed before, this was the first point I felt I had something even vaguely constructive to contribute. But I guess whether I was making a genuine contribution or endlessly repeating the same opinions misconceptions and old canards is a matter of opinion and I apologise if that's all I've done.
lanternerouge
Veteran
- Location
- Leafy Cheshire
The more I watch pro sport the more cynical I become about it. The graphic quoted earlier in the thread is certainly pretty shocking
I have long been convinced that Armstrong is and was a serial doper after reading Kimmage's book among others. For me his aggressive PR campaigns with their repetitious phrases are a dead giveaway. US election style tactics. Get the right message out, never mind the truth.
I also read this excellent article in Sports Illustrated today about the widespread doping in baseball. The differences in performance cited due to steroid use etc are unbelievable. You can easily see how almost any sport can be corrupted. Then flicked the TV on to the US Open where Woods is standing there with his bodybuilder's physique. Then watched the pumped-up Springboks battering England (Spies among others has long been rumoured to be "juiced up" as the South African vernacular has it). It is easy to become paranoid about the veracity of many of the events we are watching on TV.
When I look again at that graphic, it makes me doubt the performances of Team SKY. I really want to believe they are clean, but how can they be? How can they all be so dominant (witness Dauphiné TT for example)? Say it ain't so, Wiggo... are we mugs for believing all this stuff about marginal gains and sports science and training in Tenerife and swimming coaches? I really hope not, and I do think they are probably clean... but then you should read the comments on l'Equipe under the articles about Wiggins' victories... 50% at least think SKY are doping.
I have long been convinced that Armstrong is and was a serial doper after reading Kimmage's book among others. For me his aggressive PR campaigns with their repetitious phrases are a dead giveaway. US election style tactics. Get the right message out, never mind the truth.
I also read this excellent article in Sports Illustrated today about the widespread doping in baseball. The differences in performance cited due to steroid use etc are unbelievable. You can easily see how almost any sport can be corrupted. Then flicked the TV on to the US Open where Woods is standing there with his bodybuilder's physique. Then watched the pumped-up Springboks battering England (Spies among others has long been rumoured to be "juiced up" as the South African vernacular has it). It is easy to become paranoid about the veracity of many of the events we are watching on TV.
When I look again at that graphic, it makes me doubt the performances of Team SKY. I really want to believe they are clean, but how can they be? How can they all be so dominant (witness Dauphiné TT for example)? Say it ain't so, Wiggo... are we mugs for believing all this stuff about marginal gains and sports science and training in Tenerife and swimming coaches? I really hope not, and I do think they are probably clean... but then you should read the comments on l'Equipe under the articles about Wiggins' victories... 50% at least think SKY are doping.
lanternerouge
Veteran
- Location
- Leafy Cheshire
Good Noodley. Perhaps I don;t understand it well enough. One thing that is reassuring is that they are hardly Pantani-ing it up the mountains. Their performance on the Joux Plane the other day had me wondering. But as said earlier, it would have to be the most brazen and cynical PR campaign if doping were behind it all - I just can't see it, it's not what they are about as people surely.
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