Bastard Landlords Part II

[ttcycle]

I take your point entirely.

To go back to something Dan wrote - it is fair to say that in London the landlord really has considerable bargaining power because rents are going up and up and up. Big time landlords are expanding, and making a fortune. From the point of view of the amateur landlord this offers a different kind of opportunity - take a lower rent than you might be offered, but choose the tenant carefully. And here's where the agent comes in......agents sometimes have a bit of an agenda - tenant moves on after twelve months, agent gets fee. So, really the landlord has to find an agent that is prepared to buy in to the longer term. What my agent said to me is 'if you like them, then reduce the rent for the second and subsequent years'. That makes sense to me...........

Hah!

Maybe I should rent with you Simon!

 

[Brains]

My understanding (but please read post above to get an idea of the breadth of that understanding) is that if it is in the inventory then it should work.

If it's on the inventory and says it works, then it should work.
If it does not then change the inventory on both your copy and the landlords copy (or don't sign the inventory in the first place)
If it's stopped working then ask the landlord what date he will arrange replacement/fixing


Inventories:
An absolute minefield!
They need to be very very detailed, with photos, I'm serious when I tell you my inventories for a typical downstairs loo run to two pages of description, a kitchen will be at least five pages. A 3 bed flat will run to 20-30 pages of description plus at least 3-10 photos of every room (including the downstairs loo).

 

[dellzeqq]

Inventories:
An absolute minefield!
They need to be very very detailed, with photos, I'm serious when I tell you my inventories for a typical downstairs loo run to two pages of description, a kitchen will be at least five pages. A 3 bed flat will run to 20-30 pages of description plus at least 3-10 photos of every room (including the downstairs loo).

I'm serious when I dispense with the leaving inventory and instruct the agent to return the deposit without delay. I don't believe in Karma, but I do think this life's too short.

 

[Dan B]

So what have we established? It seems to me that we have an inherently asymmetric relationship: the landlord is always going to consider deficiencies in his property as less important or less immediate or less urgent than his tenant will, because his tenant experiences them personally and he experiences them only at a remove. The tenant's remedies are to up sticks and settle elsewhere, or to seek redress in the courts, neither or which is a cheap or simple process - it's often easier just to put up with whatever the problem is until it gets worse or gets unbearable.

So how could the experiences of renting be made more "immediate" for the landlord? Legal remedies are too unwieldy, it needs to be an economic incentive of some kind (preferably not one requiring expensive legal mediation in cases where landlord and tenant disagree), or some kind of social pressure.

 

[Dan B]

So, really the landlord has to find an agent that is prepared to buy in to the longer term. What my agent said to me is 'if you like them, then reduce the rent for the second and subsequent years'. That makes sense to me...........

One thing I thought of suggesting (but didn't) in my post that crossed yours is something akin to the "no claims discount" that buyers of car insurance get if they can manage several years without hitting anything. I guess this is basically the same idea.

 

[Archie_tect]

How about this idea?

If the current copies of the insurance certificate for the buildings and contents had to be displayed in the rented property- in the same way that an Employer's Liability insurance certificate has to be displayed in workplaces by law?

That way if the tenant reports a problem which the landlord fails to remedy then the tenant could legally be assigned the right by variation of the tenancy Act to contact the insurer and make a claim which the landlord would then have to pay the excess on- plus the increased premium the following year. That way there is incentive for the landlord to react promptly to undertake repairs and replacements to reduce his claims record but if he can't be bothered the tenant can resolve the matter with the insurer as a third party.

Bound to be loads of detail to sort out, but it also has the benefit of demonstrating that the tenant is protected and that the landlord has valid insurance.

 

[lulubel]

There are good and bad landlords, and good and bad tenants.

We count ourselves as good tenants, and we like to think we're pretty good at finding good landlords. I find it's about taking your time when you look around the house, checking that everything works, looking for any signs that the house has been neglected, asking questions, and generally talking to the person who owns it. (We have rented through agents before, but wouldn't do it again because we're much happier dealing directly with the person who actually has an interest in making sure the property's looked after.)

We currently live in a lovely house that was immaculate when we moved in because the last tenants had trashed it (and stolen the kitchen appliances when they left), so our landlord had had to repair the damage and get it totally redecorated. We pay the rent in cash every month, which is good for our landlord because it gives him an excuse to come round and reassure himself that we're looking after the place, and good for us because he always checks with us that there aren't any problems - there haven't been any other than a leaky seal around a bath that we sorted ourselves. We've been here a year and he's just offered us a new 3 year contract, which is great for us because we know he really wants to sell the house if the market ever picks up, and we'd really like to stay here!

We're still friends with our last landlords - we only moved because we decided we wanted to live nearer the coast. And our landlord before that was so hands off that the only time we saw him in nearly 3 years was when a washer went on the kitchen tap and we couldn't find the stopcock - he was round within 5 minutes of our call.

There are exceptions to the rule, but I think if you're good tenants, you'll generally find landlords who look after you. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work the other way round, as our current landlord experienced before we came along.

 

[Brains]

I'm serious when I dispense with the leaving inventory and instruct the agent to return the deposit without delay. I don't believe in Karma, but I do think this life's too short.

I very rarely hang onto (parts of) the deposit.
However:

The flat with a 'no pets' rule where I had to replace all the carpets and the front door (cat flap cut through with an axe!)
The flat with some very nice Japanese students who over two years poured fat down the drains to the extent we had to get in a hot pressure washer in to clean over 100m of piping, the cleaners had not seen drains that bad outside of China Town
The flat left full of IKEA furniture (two lorry runs to the dump)
The flat where the occupants had removed all the kitchen cabinet doors 'as they did not like them' I had to then replace all the draw fronts as well to get them all to match
The flat with the very long term tenants who over a decade has slowly converted the inside to resemble a canal barge. Do you know how difficult it is to over paint green and red stripes with magnolia ? It took coat after coat, and we had to do not just walls, but floors and ceilings as well.
The flat with the built in sculpture. To big and heavy to get out. Had to jack hammer it apart
The flat that ran raves and grew grass in the garden
The flat with the heavy rock band, nice tenants, as long as you did mind them jamming with the lads next door (each in their own house, the noise could be heard at over quarter of a mile)
The flat with two very nice girls. I found out they were receiving rather a lot of 'gentlemen callers' all day and night

and I could go on ......

 

[Dan B]

Thinking about that further, maybe insurance is the answer! Tenants could take out "tenants maintenance insurance" which for a regular premium would undertake to deal with the landlord and whoever else necessary when something goes wrong. Inscos would thus amass useful data on who's a reasonable person and who's a self-gratification artist or has property in poor repair. Better tenants would cost less in claims and get lower rates; better landlords likewise. Landlords would be required to display "insurance groups" on their properties when advertising them for let, and it would provide them useful information about their prospective tenants too. Certainly more useful than the credit check they currently perform

 

[dellzeqq]

So what have we established? It seems to me that we have an inherently asymmetric relationship: the landlord is always going to consider deficiencies in his property as less important or less immediate or less urgent than his tenant will, because his tenant experiences them personally and he experiences them only at a remove. The tenant's remedies are to up sticks and settle elsewhere, or to seek redress in the courts, neither or which is a cheap or simple process - it's often easier just to put up with whatever the problem is until it gets worse or gets unbearable.

So how could the experiences of renting be made more "immediate" for the landlord? Legal remedies are too unwieldy, it needs to be an economic incentive of some kind (preferably not one requiring expensive legal mediation in cases where landlord and tenant disagree), or some kind of social pressure.

You're absolutely right, but every remedy I can think of is worse than the problem - because there has to be some system of checks and balances.

There is a sense in which this is no different from any kind of consumer problem.

Cyclist buys bike. Bike not put together properly (wheels out of true, dropout not vertical, bottom bracket has a click in it). Now, the cyclist can complain, or go to Trading Standards, but actually the remedies are so prolonged that the sensible thing to do is to fix the damn thing yourself, or take it to another shop and pay to have it fixed. It's not right, it's short term, but the alternatives are more painful.

The problem is that accommodation is so very vital. The stakes are raised.

 

[theclaud]

Back to OT- TC what leverage have you got in terms of the washing machine? That just seems ridiculous and pig ignorant. If it's supplied by them and it breaks, they need to fix it.

It's not really about the washing machine - I'm used to sorting out minor problems, and you just have to get on with it, as in DZ's post about bicycles. I might well be able to get it fixed by a kind friend for nothing, or the cost of any parts. If I have to buy another I'll do so, and deduct the cost from the rent. The problem is that it's a barometer of how ****ed we're going to be in the event of a serious issue or dispute, and of our general chances of getting him to discharge any of his responsibilities whatever. I knew he was useless, actually, thanks to some big previous clues, but a broken washing machine conveys a sense of urgency. And there isn't a woolly jumper stuck in it. I have a co-tenant of a less robust disposition who has no stomach for the fight - I suspect she will see moving as the only option, and it will have to be to her schedule as she's not one for taking it to the wire. The problem is that she can afford it and I can't, and that if I have to move then I will probably think about finding a place alone, which, even if I move to a cheaper area, will probably cost as much in losing the economies of sharing as it will save in other ways.

Oh and for your further entertainment, this is his latest. ****

The machine is supplied for free by me. It is not part of the rent. I am not too chuffed that me letting you use it is construed as creating a precedent of entitlement. The tone makes the music as we say in German - asking nicely goes a long way!

I will save my reply, which is going to be a little more than acerbic, until my friend Dr Evil can give me a diagnosis for the machine. Just out of interest, does anyone have any experience of taking a landlord to court over failure to notify their tenant that their deposit is protected?

 

[ttcycle]

Have you chucked the law book at him TC?

I'm sorry to hear about the co tenant, bailing out seems all to often the easier but cowardly approach.
Though I've been in lots of 'fights' about this that and the other so I choose my battles - one involving the home is not comfortable at all and ffs I don't hold out much hope for the idiot to understand. The tone in his email is just ignorant and he hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Was the machine in the inventory?

You are right, if there are bigger problems, there's not going to be much done about it.

If he's not notified you that your deposit is protected then it isn't as you should get notification separately from My Deposits etc. This may be your leverage TC. I can imagine it may well get pretty nasty though judging by his responses so far, your call as to whether this place is worth it and worth fighting for.

You have my sympathies, just wish there was more that could be done.

 

[Trembler49]

My experience of most but not all landlords is that they are crooks pure and simple. Alot of them do not even comply with the basics like fire detectors and prey on people who have no other option other than renting because they bought all the cheaper property to make money.

Housing should be precisely that not an investment for making money and whilst I have nothing against people making money of it the onus of the law should always be that houses are for living in not making vast sums of money at the expense of the greater good.

You really have missed the point of this capitalism business haven't you? You will be wanting everyone to live in a council house next!

 

[Arch]

As a single bloke with no interest in starting a family and no desire to have 'a relationship' and I'm happy with the flexibility and relatively less stressful lifestyle of a renter (no building bills etc).

Admitedly I'm probably in a smaller group of renters but thats just how it is for me and likely to stay so.

I dunno. Most of my colleagues (and myself, to some extent, although my circs have changed slightly in the last year) are in similar situations - most are are renting with housemates or partners, but probably have similar feelings, or see renting as a perfectly acceptable step towards maybe one day owning.

My landlord is fine - very hands off unless needed. I've been here 4 years or so, and thanks to bikes, an allergy to hoovering and a shaky hand with a red wine glass, I'll be perfectly happy for my deposit to pay for a new carpet if and when I do move on. There are two of us middle aged women in the block of 5 flats, and I think the landlord is happy to have us as stable sensible tenants, when the other flats seem to change hands relatively often.

 

[theclaud]

Have you chucked the law book at him TC?

I'm sorry to hear about the co tenant, bailing out seems all to often the easier but cowardly approach.
Though I've been in lots of 'fights' about this that and the other so I choose my battles - one involving the home is not comfortable at all and ffs I don't hold out much hope for the idiot to understand. The tone in his email is just ignorant and he hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Was the machine in the inventory?

You are right, if there are bigger problems, there's not going to be much done about it.

If he's not notified you that your deposit is protected then it isn't as you should get notification separately from My Deposits etc. This may be your leverage TC. I can imagine it may well get pretty nasty though judging by his responses so far, your call as to whether this place is worth it and worth fighting for.

You have my sympathies, just wish there was more that could be done.

There is no signed inventory. As the property was occupied when we viewed, we confirmed with the agent whether certain items were included, and took photographs of what was his at the beginning of the tenancy. It was somewhat sparsely furnished in comparison to our previous place (which was over-furnished), so our main concern at the time was with establishing what was not there so he wouldn't be able to claim any property that we had to buy in. We asked about an inventory, and he has expressed an interest in compiling one, but has not managed to find the time to do so, and he lives a bit of a way away. There is no way I'd sign an inventory without the machine on it, or indeed without anything of importance that was provided when we moved in. When we initially asked for notification of the deposit scheme, he claimed the agents hadn't passed the deposit to him at all. He has since acknowledged he has it, but has yet to give us details - this has definitely been in my mind as leverage. Early attempts to get him to fix or improve non-urgent things have been unpromising, to put it mildly. I've had landlords like this before, but not since I was a student, when I'd have responded by similarly bypassing all legitimate process, ignoring the need for permission, getting things sorted and then deducting the costs from the rent and sending receipts. It's trickier when you're trying to establish a permanent home and have a co-tenant who is conflict-averse and doesn't do direct action/redress. You can't live with someone who is permanently stressed about living there.