BBC Breakfast item today on illegally modded ebikes

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classic33

Leg End Member
I agree they don't need the data itself, but the government could at least say that 'yes that person is not entitled to work work in the UK, their transport can be seized'. Seizing due to lack of legal right to work might seem like overkill but if they are using it for work, when they are not entitled to work, I see that as being fair.

Unfortunately I don't think these delivery companies need to collect NI numbers as they don't employ the workers direct, there's no PAYE scheme to administer for them.
Their own tracking apps, download required in order to take orders, let them see where the riders are. And even if they don't show actual speed, distance and time taken can be used.
As for seizing the bike, it'd be on the grounds of the vehicle being illegal to be in use, not because of the person using it.

There's riders who are now using petrol engined mopeds in the same manner they ride their ebikes. They* on those because the bikes they used have been seized by the police. Then the bike is replaced, and it's back to an illegal ebike.

*They should read they're
 
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Psamathe

Über Member
Unfortunately I don't think these delivery companies need to collect NI numbers as they don't employ the workers direct, there's no PAYE scheme to administer for them.
No PAYE but I thought since 2024 companies have to reports payments to HMRC and that requires NI number (as well as other details).

Ian
 

Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
I have no idea what laws cover this, but if the likes of JustEat and Deliveroo are not requird to vet their riders, who are effectively not employed by them anyway, then why would they? And if they are not required to by law, then it's not really their fault. Don't hate the player, hate the game, so to speak. So laws need to be passed that every sub-contractor or self-employed contractor needs to be checked for NI numbercard at the very least. This would make a lot of sense re: checking your contractors have the right to work in the UK.

They would also have to bring in something around checking all vehicles used by contractors are road legal. I doubt any company who hires a builder is currently checking that the builder's vans have got valid MOT and Tax. I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but generally you can't apply specific laws to delivery riders and their affiliated "employers" without applying it across the board.

I agree that working status and legality of kit/vehicles used is a very good thing, but not sure it sits entirely at JustEats door. Would be good if it did though
 

Psamathe

Über Member
I have no idea what laws cover this, but if the likes of JustEat and Deliveroo are not requird to vet their riders, who are effectively not employed by them anyway, then why would they? And if they are not required to by law, then it's not really their fault. Don't hate the player, hate the game, so to speak. So laws need to be passed that every sub-contractor or self-employed contractor needs to be checked for NI numbercard at the very least. This would make a lot of sense re: checking your contractors have the right to work in the UK.
(I'm no legal expert so just personal views).
I don't disagree but when a company engages sub contractors it maintains some responsibility for their actions. We periodically get scandals where some UK High St retailer has sub-contracted to some distant overseas company where employment terms and controls are laxer yet big scandal and changes ensue.

I wonder if Planning Departments could also start to contribute to a solution eg by recognising that having high speed illegal vehicles without insurance charging around pedestrian zones is a public nuisance and thus to impose planning restrictions on the operation when applications for eg "Change of Use" are considered/granted.

Another aspect is Health and Safety". Having staff use illegal vehicles without insurance and without necessary licenses would probably contravene Health & Safety. A quick Google search and UK Health & Safety Executive say "For health and safety purposes, gig economy workers should be treated no differently to other workers" (https://www.hse.gov.uk/vulnerable-workers/gig-agency-temporary-workers/employer/index.htm) — and with my lack of experience suggests the outlet would have some degree of liability.

Ian
 

Psamathe

Über Member
(I don't even have an e-bike so very limited knowledge so please do correct me ...)
I don't consider these things as illegal e-bikes but rather as motor vehicles being ridden without necessary approvals, that don't comply with the law/regulations, driven without insurance by drivers who have no license covering the vehicle type and often driven in places where such vehicles are not permitted. That they happen to look like "bikes" and maybe even were historically "bikes" isn't relevant because they've have works changing them into a different type of vehicle.

Or, I just don't properly understand e-bikes.

Ian
 

mustang1

Legendary Member
Location
London, UK
On one side, we have the delivery riders who are trying to make a living. Their employers say they take safety seriously but on the other hand it's in the company's interest to get food delivered quickly, so maybe they give just enough priority to safety to keep food being delivered, riders safe-enough, and the money coming in. High frequency, low type of problem.

And then there's the dark side where illegal e-bikes are used in crime: phone snatching and whatever else. Low frequency (but maybe high enough?), high type of problem. I think this is what needs to be tackled first with harsh punishments.
 

Psamathe

Über Member
On one side, we have the delivery riders who are trying to make a living. Their employers say they take safety seriously but on the other hand it's in the company's interest to get food delivered quickly, so maybe they give just enough priority to safety to keep food being delivered, riders safe-enough, and the money coming in. High frequency, low type of problem.
Without wanting to move into NCAP discussions, is part of the problem our "system" where customers are not paying the true cost of services they are using? Should we not be paying people adequately such that they don't feel they need to break the law to live?

Customers will appear cost sensitive but they pay for hygiene, pay for safe food standards (eg food not full of carcinogenic pesticides), etc. So, if those I'd regard as "employers" (the restaurants) won't pay properly for whatever reason, maybe legislation is necessary.

Ian
 

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Über Member
Location
Hampshire, UK
Can we have a Healy breakaway attempt in yellow for the lols?🤣
 

raleighnut

Legendary Member
They would also have to bring in something around checking all vehicles used by contractors are road legal. I doubt any company who hires a builder is currently checking that the builder's vans have got valid MOT and Tax. I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but generally you can't apply specific laws to delivery riders and their affiliated "employers" without applying it across the board.
Many years ago we had a Conservatory built by a reputable company to a custom design of my own (Needhans of Loughborough)) then a few years later we had them fit some new windows and got talking to the guy who did that. Apparently the guy who built our Conservatory didn't have a driving licence despite the company van...................he'd worked for them for over ten years
 
(I don't even have an e-bike so very limited knowledge so please do correct me ...)
I don't consider these things as illegal e-bikes but rather as motor vehicles being ridden without necessary approvals, that don't comply with the law/regulations, driven without insurance by drivers who have no license covering the vehicle type and often driven in places where such vehicles are not permitted. That they happen to look like "bikes" and maybe even were historically "bikes" isn't relevant because they've have works changing them into a different type of vehicle.

Or, I just don't properly understand e-bikes.

Ian

This is exactly what they are
just unlicensed motorbikes with no MOT, reg plate or anything- being ridden by people with no motorbike license and not wearing a helmet - etc etc
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Safety Officers in Leeds, and elsewhere, can't do anything about them using the pavements illegally, blocking the pavements when they park up. They can't apparently park up using the provided cycle racks, so may use street furniture to lock them to. They carry no number plates, so no tickets can be issued for illegal parking.
West Yorkshire Police officers regard them as bicycles, "They have pedals!". This means they can't do anything about them being illegal as no one set of orders seems to have been given to different every division. Personal opinion here, but I think they've been told to ignore them if possible. They can do that, but at some point, someone innocent is going to be hurt by one of them. Maybe even killed by one.

I've been pulled before by the police, because of what I was riding at the time. Fitting the lights I'd need before I got home in front of them. They're carried if I know there's a chance of part of the trip requiring them, not always fitted to the bike.

Why aren't the simple regulations, well known by many in authority, not applied to e-bikes?
I'm not thinking of anything obscure, but the simple stuff, as given above, lights, traffic signs/signals, travelling the wrong way up a one way street.
We often talk about black bike ninjas, dressed in black riding in the dark with no lights. Compound that with the possibility that you may have such a person travelling at speed, at night against the flow of traffic. Or as seen last week across three lanes of traffic going in both directions. Enforcement on these is possible, so why isn't it.
 
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2 bike interactions today

One was a normal bike - no motor - and he was going down the main road near us
cars were going slow and then passing when they could

suddenly he just verred out to his right betwwen to cars and shot across the road
I know he was aiming for a dropped kerb to get to the cycle path on teh other side - but it was damn dangerous


second - ebike - on teh High Street - hub drive , well over the size of the legal ones

but being riden slowly and making way for the people walking and pushcahirs and all that
generally being very responsible


so it is not all of them
and some of the nutters ride normal bikes


( also know which was more likely to get "done" and fined!!!
 
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