Beauty and the Bike

[dellzeqq]

The thing is as you race by in lycra on a painful looking road bike you are putting normal everyday people off cycling. However wide your smile is, they still look at you and think, that sort of thing is not for me and jump back into their cars.

no. People cycle because it's cheap, quick, reliable and healthy. They're not put off by other cyclists, they're put off because at least one of the four above is missing, and because they believe it to be unsafe. The extraordinary mix of styles that crowds up London's bus lanes every day is proof that cycling is, as people have said, different things to different people, and different things to the same people at different times.

Having said that the main issue is cycle paths, the more we have, the more people will cycle and the fewer cars there will be.

and that's just wrong - the two areas of the country that have experienced the greatest surge in cycling in the last ten years did so without cycle paths.

 

[Nipper]

no. People cycle because it's cheap, quick, reliable and healthy. They're not put off by other cyclists, they're put off because at least one of the four above is missing, and because they believe it to be unsafe. The extraordinary mix of styles that crowds up London's bus lanes every day is proof that cycling is, as people have said, different things to different people, and different things to the same people at different times.

Indeed and I am a fat scruff on a folder as well as a tweedy on a Pashley... it takes all sorts and a diverse bus lane is good because there are plenty of different role models for non cyclists. I am a bit militant about lycra because it is usually the lycra speed boys who are most anti cycle path.


Originally Posted by Nipper
Having said that the main issue is cycle paths, the more we have, the more people will cycle and the fewer cars there will be.

and that's just wrong - the two areas of the country that have experienced the greatest surge in cycling in the last ten years did so without cycle paths.

WHAT! Are you mad! The countries with the highest rates of cycling have the most separated infrastructure. It is the infrastructure stupid! I don't want small increases in cycle use but a revolution, the only way there will be a real increase in bike use is if we follow the countries that have really made it work.

In my 30 years of cycling all I have seen are a small minority of conviction cyclists encouraging each other...getting the mass of everyday people onto bikes as a real alternative to the car will require separated infrastructure. There is no way that a majority of people will want to share main roads with fast cars and massive lorries, it is just not going to happen. What ordinary people and families want is the feeling of safety they get from separated paths.

Your surge is really a dribble in comparison to the countries who have actually funded infrastructure. Cyclists who muddy the argument with crap about vehicular cycling are just a gift for the motoring lobby as they help keep cycle numbers low. I know vehicular cycling is faster, more exciting and statistically safer but it is a complete waste of time in getting people to use the bike as an alternative for the car.

Just remember "It is the infrastructure stupid!".

 

[Baggy]

Batman and Robin types might in some small measure adversely affect cycling take-up, (and yes, "lycra clad super-heroes" do feed into the cultural construct of cyclists as sporty outsiders in the UK), but there are more insidious and deeply entrenched barriers to cycing that we should be addressing.

Agreed (and wot Delzeqq said, too). Most of the people I see in lycra on a day to day basis are riding into the city from some (hilly) distance away.
Most of the people I see in the city during the day are wearing civvies. Some of these people are the same people, many of them are not. And this isn't London, it's not far from where Nipper lives.

There's a noticeable increase in the utility cycling side of things and that's partly because of the cheaper and greener aspect, offer of free cycling lessons and promotion of cycling as getting from A-B whilst you're looking good, not just as a sport. It's a combination of things that is making the difference, not just providing paths (which we've also had more of).

It's wonderful that more people are taking to the roads (and paths). However, there are plenty of cyclists of all types but people still think "that's not for me". We're still not developing a cycling culture.

As I see it, places like Copenhagen, cities in the Netherlands etc have never lost their cycling culture - that is why they have good infrastructure and why cycling is perceived as being safe, normal and not something you only do if you can't afford a car.

The biggest difference between the UK and European cities and towns is the fact they also tend to have excellent integrated public transport which encourages people to leave their cars at home in the first place.

Based on what I've seen and people I know, people don't tend to commute to work by bike. They might keep a bike at work for use during the day but won't be cycling 12 miles home in their civvies - they'll be on the train, tram or bus.

All of this adds up to being able to trundle round the city during the day with the breeze in your hair, looking fab, stately and unflustered.

As an aside to the debate - plenty of our european counterparts also have more than one bike and dig out their lycra and "painful" bikes at weekends to hit the roads...

 

[Baggy]

I know vehicular cycling is faster, more exciting and statistically safer but it is a complete waste of time in getting people to use the bike as an alternative for the car.

Just remember "It is the infrastructure stupid!".

And that's exactly why we should be investing in excellent public transport infrastructure.

Countries that have really made it work may invest in infrastructure, but they've also done that since, well, forever and don't have to turn the tide against car use as the norm in the same way we have to.

I'll wager peak oil is going to have far more impact than infrastructure in the shape of paths.

 

[Nipper]

it's not far from where Nipper lives.

Bristol? Come on be brave and reveal a tiny detail...

It's wonderful that more people are taking to the roads (and paths). However, there are plenty of cyclists of all types but people still think "that's not for me". We're still not developing a cycling culture.

As I see it, places like Copenhagen, cities in the Netherlands etc have never lost their cycling culture - that is why they have good infrastructure and why cycling is perceived as being safe, normal and not something you only do if you can't afford a car.

Good points. I think because we have lost so much of our cycle culture our only option is to restrict car use too. Ken said he was just the first politician with the balls to do what needed to be done when he introduced the congestion charge. If only some of other of our politicians would grow a pair we might have a chance. In Taunton the council have two park and ride schemes, they seem to be having very little effect because they haven't actually linked the main one with any kind of cycle route, or banned cars from the town centre, or made much effort to reduce the car parking spaces in the centre, or made any effort to ban car parking by the towns employers or for council workers, or made any effort to ban cars outside local schools, or increased council tax for two car households or offered council tax reductions to cyclists. Nationally the tax on fuel for private cars and taxis should be also be massively increased...

The changes are simple but car drivers are many and very selfish, so it's unlikely that any of the changes will be made.

 

[summerdays]

Further down the page on one of Origamist link's there was the following blog:

http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2009/11/paying-to-use-cars-not-to-own-them.html

The Netherlands is soon to be the first place in Europe to tax people's use of cars rather than ownership. The expectation is that six to ten percent fewer car journeys will mean that traffic deaths will fall by about the same percentage, saving twenty to forty lives a year in the country which already has the world's safest roads.

Perhaps the people in power might look and take note?

 

[Norm]

The Netherlands is soon to be the first place in Europe to tax people's use of cars rather than ownership

What is all that duty on fuel then, other than a tax on use?

 

[dellzeqq]

Just remember "It is the infrastructure stupid!".

right. As you were, then. Bikes outnumbering private cars on the A24...........

A few years back I attended a meeting of TfL's Greenways committee. They were just about to spend over a million quid on the Wandle Way, a smooth offroad route that goes north to the centre of Wandsworth. It runs parallel to a road called Garratt Lane. They discussed how they would assess the effectiveness of the Wandle Way in order to spend the money wisely. A survey was called for. I suggested that the survey should cover Garratt Lane. This was treated with the kind of derision Nipper employs.

The money was spent. I'd put a fiver of my own that the cycle traffic on Garratt Lane exceeds that on the Wandle Way by 50 times. And the last time I took my dear lady wife, then a tracksuited hybridiste on the Wandle Way she said 'never again - life is too short'.

Anyway - this is a far cry from beauty. I'm not convinced by the video. Last week the kid had a soiree. A girl arrived on a marvellous bright red retro bike, festooned with chrome lights. She hated it. She wanted a Langster.

 

[summerdays]

What is all that duty on fuel then, other than a tax on use?

Because as it says:

The intention is that driving on busy roads in the rush hour will cost more than driving on less busy roads at other times. It is intended to be a revenue neutral change to the tax on motorists, so that 60% of drivers will see their costs drop.

If you wanted to it could get very complicated in its calculations - imagine charging lorries following sat nav's past signs saying unsuitable for heavy vehicles. Or cars stopping within 50 m of a school at the beginning or end of school

 

[Norm]

Which reads like a form of congestion charging, as evidenced on many toll bridges and roads as well as the streets of our very own capital.

I take the point that it's an evolution of past measures but I am not at all convinced that it is the first place in Europe to tax use rather than ownership.

Actually, having now read some of the replies on that page, I realise I'm just churning up stuff which has been discussed there already.

 

[Origamist]

Anyway - this is a far cry from beauty. I'm not convinced by the video. Last week the kid had a soiree. A girl arrived on a marvellous bright red retro bike, festooned with chrome lights. She hated it. She wanted a Langster.

Funny that. After dragging Ms O around all the bling on display at the Earls Court Bike Show, only one steed caught her eye. Was it titanium, adorned with campag, sporting £2Ks worth of wheels - no, it was the Pashley Tube Rider...!

http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/tube-rider-pintail.html

 

[Nipper]

The money was spent. I'd put a fiver of my own that the cycle traffic on Garratt Lane exceeds that on the Wandle Way by 50 times. And the last time I took my dear lady wife, then a tracksuited hybridiste on the Wandle Way she said 'never again - life is too short'.

Anyway - this is a far cry from beauty. I'm not convinced by the video. Last week the kid had a soiree. A girl arrived on a marvellous bright red retro bike, festooned with chrome lights. She hated it. She wanted a Langster.

Right so you don't like a cycle path that may not be of the best design and so from that you have confidently worked out that all cycle paths are rubbish.

You know one girl that prefers a racing bike to a real bike and you confidently say the video must be wrong.

What arrogant nonsense. You obviously want cycling to remain a minority activity. Please don't go to any planning meetings pretending to be talking for cyclists because you will be stopping potential cyclists from using the bicycle as an alternative to the car. You have to be realistic a new cyclist, family or slow utility cyclist doesn't want to be on main road with lorries and fast moving cars. Your selfish racing cyclist attitude will mean more road deaths and fewer cyclists.

 

[MartinC]

There's a great confusion between cause and effect going on here. In the Netherlands, Denmark etc. there are many cyclists so many of them will be utility cyclists in 'ordinary' clothes. In the UK only very committed cyclists cycle so there's a greater proportion of sporting cyclists. Blaming them for the lack of cycling is looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

Similarly in the Netherlands, Denmark etc. many people cycle so there are lots of cycle paths.

Consider two other examples. The UK in the fifties - many cyclists, few cycle paths. China, many cyclists few cycle paths.

The reluctance to cycle in the UK is largely, IMO, down to the attitude and the behaviour of car drivers. These cultural values are an echo of the US where the same reluctance to cycle is also evident.

If you want more people to cycle then this is the issue that needs addressing. Provision of cycle facilities is one, of very many, measures that can be used to address this. Banning lycra or removing cyclists from the road certainly aren't

 

[snorri]

In the UK only very committed cyclists cycle so there's a greater proportion of sporting cyclists.

I can't agree that only committed cyclists cycle in the UK, but agree on the proportions. It's this high proportion of cyclists in specialised clothing that gives the impression to the non cyclist that specialised clothing is essential wear for the cyclist, this is quite clearly nonsense for much utility cycling.
Sometimes I think this forum could do with a section for utility cyclists, I find it quite disheartening when newbies are encouraged in Beginners to go clipless and wear base layers etc without first asking them why they want to start cycling in the first place.

 

[dellzeqq]

Right so you don't like a cycle path that may not be of the best design and so from that you have confidently worked out that all cycle paths are rubbish.

You know one girl that prefers a racing bike to a real bike and you confidently say the video must be wrong.

What arrogant nonsense. You obviously want cycling to remain a minority activity. Please don't go to any planning meetings pretending to be talking for cyclists because you will be stopping potential cyclists from using the bicycle as an alternative to the car. You have to be realistic a new cyclist, family or slow utility cyclist doesn't want to be on main road with lorries and fast moving cars. Your selfish racing cyclist attitude will mean more road deaths and fewer cyclists.

very entertaining.

- I'm not a racing cyclist. I'm too old and slow. At night I ride a Colnago. By day I ride a Brompton
- the Langster is not a racing bike - it's a singlespeed, which is a type of bike very popular with young people. For no good reason - it's a fashion thing. I've got nothing against the dutch style of bike - the first bike I bought my dear lady wife was a ladies bike - I'm just not that sure that teenage girls are going for them in big numbers
- cycle paths are not all bad - it's just that in London very few people use them. And this particular cycle path was held up by Sustrans to be the best design.
- utility cyclists in London do precisely the opposite of your expectations - they go down the main roads because they are direct, and that is where the bus lanes are. And, as I have said, there are main roads on which, in summer, cyclists now outnumber private cars
- and, lastly, when you have introduced anything like the number of people that I have introduced to cycling your opinion will be worth something

sometimes I just stand and watch the new breed of London cyclist go by at Kennington. There's all sorts. All ages. All kinds of physique, and some with no physique to speak of. A greater percentage of cyclists are women than I can remember in my lifetime. Some in lycra but most in a kind of scruffy semi-cyclist outfit. Some in suits, some wearing heels. All of these people are testament to the bus lane, and to the idea of critical mass. When cycling reaches level of visibility, provided the conditions are there, it takes off. There might be some nirvana in which cycle paths can be run through towns and cities along lines of open space that have, thus far, eluded us, but the simple fact is that most destinations will be in the centre of town or along high streets, and that is where our task lies - not in channelling traffic in to seperate alleyways, but in the rescue of our town centres and high streets from the car.

And, although you weren't to know this, I have spent spells working in a bike shop in your part of the world. The shop is the home of the town's racing club. It's best selling bike is the Ridgeback Velocity, a 'city bike' that weighs about 27lbs. A cyclist is a cyclist is a cyclist.