Beauty and the Bike

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dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
how are those cycle lanes in Taunton coming along?
article-1078420-021F6B2A000005DC-1.jpg


The LCC is a democracy. If people want to join and promote segregation they can do so.

In the mean time, after taking a 90 mile round trip to run a Dr. Bike session for beginners yesterday, I thought I might try this 'vehicular cycling' lark...
DSC00251.jpg


I do know of a cycle lane that goes some way to emulating that ghastly Dutch example - it's on the way out of Ipswich. Never seen anybody use it, though.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
dellzeqq said:

You lycra road warrior, Dellzeqq. I trust the thing on the back is full of beer? Save one for Nipper - he could obviously do with a drink to calm himself down...
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
This is one of me in the summer:
292let3.jpg

Taken on route dropping off a child to go to camp - no I'm not very good at bedding rolls.
 

wafflycat

New Member
dellzeqq said:
In the mean time, after taking a 90 mile round trip to run a Dr. Bike session for beginners yesterday, I thought I might try this 'vehicular cycling' lark...
DSC00251.jpg

Yeah, yeah, yeah... but we all know that under that checked shirt you're wearing your tightest "I love Ernesto" compression base layer ;)
 

Norm

Guest
What on earth is that photo of dz doing posted so many times on a thread titled "beauty and the bike"? :smile:
 

chap

Veteran
Location
London, GB
Vehicuar transport vs. Segregation...why?

Well it seems that several issues are simultaneously playing out on this thread. To be honest, the segment I am most interested in is that of past efforts of DfT and LCC by Dellzeqq.

Generally, confrontation on ones beliefs causes them to cling even more tightly to them (like The tale of the Sun and the Wind), and this is evident with Nipper's assertions; although I would say that most have been more tolerant and patient than is strictly necessary.

I can see the argument from both ends (clearly the goal of the thread), indeed there is a lot to say for segregated cycling, and the practicality of vehicular cycling. I often lament that certain cities (Basingstoke, Milton Keynes, and parts of London) were built for cars first, HGVs second, then every other conceivable use bar cyclists, then pedestrians last. The walkability of a town plays a keen part, when resources are near, there is little reason to drive. This is one of the reasons, bar economy why I believe that cycling really has taken off in parts of London (particularly Lambeth, the East, and Wandsworth.): it is simply more convenient to cycle than undergo other pricier less efficient forms of transport such as the car (snail pace, high cost of petrol, expense of parking, and the proximity of services) and even the well run bus and tube systems. Interestingly enough, in the Netherlands and Denmark, the segregated cycle paths are not created to divert cyclists, but to shorten the distances between various resources; this is why they work. Surely, in a well constructed transportation system pedestrians and cyclists should get the most direct routes to services, and motor transport should be made to meander - after all the significance of a quarter mile varies wildly amongst a car driver, a cyclist, and a pedestrian.

Vehicular cycling works best in areas where motor transport is externally slow, therefore it would work well in a busy high street prone to traffic jams, it wouldn't work well on a stretch with a loosley enforced 20mph limit. The China argument almost fits into here, but cannot be applied in full: in China, the bike is historically the most economic and versatile form of transportation so one could argue the critical mass argument (as could they tie in the example of 50's Britain), although this cannot be used to argue in favour of vehicular cycling since the roads are famously congested with slow moving traffic going predictable routes to the extent that a whole culture has emerged to allow motor traffic and cyclist to coexist. As the country has become more 'prosperous' more people are looking to cars as a status symbol, and for use in much the same way as we do here (a means to isolate oneself from the surrounding commotion whilst travelling from A to :sad:, this shall cause similar problems to be faced as we have here, particularly if the motor car becomes 'ubiquitous' there, as it did in America, and it has here.

Segregated cycling is ideal for faster moving transport, therefore I would point to the perfect example of this, following the A4 (Great West Road) from Brentford to Heathrow ,through Hounslow. It would also be ideal on the Embankment, Piccadilly, and tricky fast junctions such as Park Lane. Whether it is needed through the residential streets of Chelsea is another thing, although exemption of one way routes would be handy.

Indeed the key goals necessary to promote and facilitate cycling are safety and convenience, but also economy. We need safe routes, scooters should not be allowed on cycle paths (nor on bus lanes); more considered cycle routes (e.g. through parks, and major roads) are required, and serious traffic calming (if not car-free) measures are required particularly in the city centres where people concentrate.

If we argue purely for one ideology over the other then the state of our infrastructure shall continue to deteriorate, since accountability is something missing in our public sphere. It is easier to build an expensive cycle route which fails to meet its users requirements, than it is to seriously address the issues surrounding fair and effective infrastructure, as the former can serve the footnote of an 'I told you so', unlike the latter which initially can be deemed a 'courageous' decision.
 

jonesy

Guru
Chap, I'd largely agree with what you say, and this point in particular:

Interestingly enough, in the Netherlands and Denmark, the segregated cycle paths are not created to divert cyclists, but to shorten the distances between various resources; this is why they work. Surely, in a well constructed transportation system pedestrians and cyclists should get the most direct routes to services, and motor transport should be made to meander - after all the significance of a quarter mile varies wildly amongst a car driver, a cyclist, and a pedestrian

That is the crux of the matter, and I go back to my earlier post about journey times competitive with other modes being a fundamental requirement of getting large numbers of people to cycle.

I would however pick up on your comment that implies there is confrontation over 'ideology' in this discussion: I hope it is clear that no-one here has argued in principle against the use of segregated facilities under any circumstances; it is only Nipper (supported by 'style over speed') who has tried to portray the argument as being polarised in this way. I and I'm sure the others would all agree that traffic-free routes done properly and in the right places can be very helpful, where they provide advantage for a particular journey as you describe, for particular groups of users, or where they provide wider benefits, e.g. as linear public spaces, health benefits through recreation etc.

Nipper gets terribly cross at my references to the 'hierarchy of measures', which I fear he misunderstands. The point is that if you try to create a segregated network without doing the other things in the hierarchy, e.g. traffic and speed reduction, roadspace re-allocation, then you are trying to shoe-horn segregated paths into the little space that remains in a highway environment designed for the benefit of motor vehicles. You will then inevitably get discontinuous, indirect, illegible routes that conflict with motor vehicles at every junction and even driveway crossing, that conflict with pedestrians, that slow you down too much thereby losing any time advantage over driving, that forces cyclists and pedestrians to share inadequate spaces right next to fast traffic flows etc etc. However, by applying the other elements of the hierachy, reducing traffic speed, flows, and taking space from it, you can avoid the need for segregation on most roads that cyclists need to use and make segregation work properly where it is appropriate.

Edit- the other key point to consider is that infrastructure can't fix problems that are caused by planning, education, economic policy etc if these have led to people living too far from work, shops and school for most people to consider cycling to them.
 

Nipper

New Member
I like the fact that some of you want to post pictures of yourselves doing normal cycling, and in Simon's picture he has on normal clothes, well done. Do you always cycle like that?. It sort of misses the point though, you already cycle and my crazy idea about cycle paths is that they encourage new people to cycle; it's so crazy it is what the girls in the film (Beauty and the Bike) are also asking for.

jonesy you are a very mixed up chap, please read David Hembrow's blog and then stop whining on like you know something.

Enough of this... With the exception of SOS and chap you are a rude and selfish bunch on this forum.
 

chap

Veteran
Location
London, GB
jonesy said:
Chap, I'd largely agree with what you say, and this point in particular:



That is the crux of the matter, and I go back to my earlier post about journey times competitive with other modes being a fundamental requirement of getting large numbers of people to cycle.
...

Edit- the other key point to consider is that infrastructure can't fix problems that are caused by planning, education, economic policy etc if these have led to people living too far from work, shops and school for most people to consider cycling to them.


I would agree with much of what you wrote.

I particularly understand that even infrastructure cannot act in isolation; however by linking alternatives through a considered infrastructure, this can act as the required catalyst for change be it enforced one way routes for cars, quick pedestrianised links to the city center and major public transportion links (rail, bus depots), and affordable efficient park and ride facilities (free parking, cheap bus fair and a car free or car restricted city centre.)

These are issues which require proper forethought, and collaboration. We stand to learn a lot from the Dutch, the Danish, and even the Parisians through their Vélib scheme; however British towns and cities deserve credit where it is due, from Cambridge (more a historical evolution) to Newcastle for their pedestrianisation schemes in the city centre.

This is how we can progress as a nation, and relieve ourselves of many of the avoidable issues surrounding traffic congestion and green travel. It is humbling to think that what we now know as 'Dutch bikes', were until relatively recently refereed to as 'English bikes' by the Dutch their-selves.
 

StuartG

slower but further
Location
SE London
Nipper - the point of a discussion forum is to share info and gently persuade. Insulting people, even if it is justified, isn't going to help. I started on your side of the argument. You alienated me. You used repetition as a substitute for facts. You attacked other forms of cycling instead of building your own.

Nobody AFAIR took issue with the original film. It was wonderful, it is the future if we want the young and especially young women on two wheels. You were looking at an open goal but only put it through your own net.

Segregated cycling has to play a part of a great cycling strategy. One near here (Sydenham to Catford) is such a pleasant experience I extend my route to include it. But realistically retrofitting cities can only include this type of facility when a waterway or something similar makes a new interesting and useful link possible. No one should be serious about all cycling to be segregated or on-road. It has to be both with discussion on just the balance.

Being right is no good if you can't convince others of it.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
here's a sentence to get Nipper all hot under the collar. Cycling in and of itself is neither interesting or politically exciting. It's what cycling can offer that is interesting and exciting. And the greatest thing that cycling can offer is to make towns and cities more congenial.

Here's where the LCC has got something wrong. Their current thinking is to divide the coarse grain from the fine grain, and to make the fine grain more neighbourly by means of home zones which are, in very basic terms, reduced speed limits and greatly reduced permeability for motor vehicles other than buses and fire engines.

The problem with this is that it is the coarse grain that carries most of our social capital. The very roads that cyclists have taken to in the greatest numbers are the very roads that are besieged from within by cars, and the very roads where most of our social capital resides. They're urban 'A' roads, the A24s, A2s, A404s, A12s of this world. They're our high streets. They're the roads which have shops and churches and libraries and post offices. They're the roads that presently bear the most cars.

So, while putting barriers across the fine grain streets to reduce rat-running, and giving cyclists a competitive advantage in relation to the car is a decent start, it sort of misses the main battlefield. Which is a shame, because this is where we sometimes win because bus lanes have given cyclists one heck of a competitive advantage on the very roads the DfT and Nipper think we should be avoiding.

We need to go one stage further and to knock lumps out of the car commuting network. I appreciate that if you were to say 'ban cars from the A24 between Balham and Colliers Wood' local business would scream blue murder and the DfT would roll out their V-bombers - but......actually........roads like the A24, set out in the latter part of the nineteenth century carry so little traffic at such a slow speed that the removal of the items causing congestion would increase the capacity of the road at a stroke. And, as the vacancy rates in High Streets show, turning a road in to a bus lane across its full width is actually pretty good news for traders and landlords. Put it another way - there's an inverse relationship between the number of cars going down a street and the rent of retail units on that street.

I'm not sure how we go about making a case for this...
 

wafflycat

New Member
As a girlie, I find it insulting that it is thought I require some sort of special treatment by way of facilities to get me cycling. As a woman, I look at the 'it's not cool' 'It's not pretty enough' 'no one cool does it' well, frankly dispiriting, as what has gone on as regards female liberation since the 60s? It's all gone backwards. Now young women in the UK aspire to be WAGs and celebrities it seems, the adverse effects of which extend to well beyond cycling. That is appalling. As regards danger & 'feeling safe' this is the UK we live in, not bloody Afghanistan, women are safe in the UK, we are able to travel independently. It appears we have bred a generation of wimps of young women. I blame women my age for that and if I had a daughter, I hope I would not have done that to her. Indeed I have had women of all age groups express surpise that I cycle alone, on the grounds "It's dangerous out there, you are so brave!" At which point I point out that this is not Afghanistan, that there isn't a sex maniac behind every lampost and that drivers really aren't out to get us. Yet frankly, I despair of the feeble attiude towards independence in life of a lot of my gender.
 

StuartG

slower but further
Location
SE London
The problem with London's backstreets is they are full of cars. Parked not moving. They are one enormous free (in our borough) substitute for garages. In others an important revenue stream for the council. Parked cars on both sides leaves only space for one stream of traffic. Two cars meet and you have a holdup. Even a passing a car in the opposite direction makes a cyclist enter the 'doorzone'. In other words in London they are not a pleasant, safe or speedy way to travel.

To go off the point it also deprives kids of the street. The consequences of that are profound.

Simon has it right (and planning has it wrong) to say main route bus lanes is the best we have in London. How to take the commuter out? I differ from Simon in not having a problem with the idea of traffic - if its moving it may be doing something useful - delivering doctors, district nurses, bread and butter. Differentiating between good & bad traffic travelling is a administrative nightmare. It won't work and it just pi**es people off. Better to constrict the end points. That's parking. As long as Westminster see it as a revenue item (even more profitable if its illegal) we have a real problem. It is when Westminster, Camden get no money then they will wish to clear the streets of impediments to traffic. That's going to make a lot us space for us and remove a lot of dangerous obstacles.

Ambulances and delivery vehicles would have a much better time too. But, to repeat Simon's question - how can we sell the concept?
 
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