Best vintage frame for non-original retro/modern build...?

[raleighnut]

Interestingly I’m just considering doing a very similar project. I’ve got a complete Campag Centaur 10 speed group set, BB and a set of Chorus hubs which I’ve had for about 10 years in a box in the garage.

I’m thinking of using a 531c frame from the 1980’s and cold setting the rear if needed, which I’ve done before. My idea is to build up a retro-mod Raleigh Panasonic replica.

My other thought was to buy a used carbon frame set (or complete bike) and build up a modern Raleigh Banana replica with Campagnolo 10 speed running gear.

My 653 TT frame got built with Centaur,

 

[chriswoody]

As @SkipdiverJohn mentions above, late eighties/early nineties Dawes and Raliegh frames are a good place to start. Mostly they'll have the 130/135mm spacing as standard, as well as the ability to fit modern brake callipers and other modern components with no problems.

Eight years ago, I picked up a Dawes Response frame from 1994, for 40 pounds. It was made from Reynolds 501 and the rear was spaced at 130mm as standard. I went with a single speed build, but I could just have easily built it up with 9 speed and a whole raft of modern components with no problems. I was also pleasantly surprised by how nice it rode and the weight wasn't too heavy either.

 

[rogerzilla]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224126487444

This would be an option, if you're not tall. Nigel Deans were nice bikes, they don't have much collector value so they're cheap, but I think they're pretty cool.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184401559891

This is a bit pricey for a frameset but is really nice...if you like pink (I think it looks good on a racing bike). 59cm is about right for a six-footer.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

The paint on my Response frame is horribly faded and covered with rust spots from unrepaired dings, so strictly in the pub/station hack bike category in it's current state.
I'm thinking of repurposing this frame as a low cost drop bar minimalist SS (but not fixed) job, which I could sling in the back of a work vehicle then there's no mech to get bashed if something falls on it, or it goes over. I picked up a few rattle cans from a "middle of Lidl" promo, dark grey top coat and primer, which @ £3 a pop was well worth taking a punt on.

 

[avecReynolds531]

I'm very taken by this build; very much along the lines of what I was planning - even down to the Aviator Grey paint which I'd considered too. I think the guy's done a fantastically period-sympathetic resto with the shiney Campag groupset,

+ 1
That is stunning. The frame and build are beautiful.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

That is stunning. The frame and build are beautiful.

I agree, very well thought out beforehand and tastefully executed. Nothing was done without a reason and the results speak for themselves.

 

[midlife]

Have you looked at the new groupset on an old frame thread on lfgss, might offer some inspiration

 

[avecReynolds531]

Have you looked at the new groupset on an old frame thread on lfgss, might offer some inspiration

+ 1
and this one at bike forums: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/361558-retro-roadies-old-frames-sti-s-ergos-2.html

 

[carpenter]

+ 1
That is stunning. The frame and build are beautiful.

Agreed

 

[avecReynolds531]

There's a Gazelle Champion Mondial frameset - 531 with Campagnolo dropouts: in Hereford, currently at £56.00: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274462441794?ul_noapp=true

Another very well regarded Dutch frame is the Batavus Professional.

 

[wafter]

Have a look at this one - Thorn Audax Mk3 R Frame - Green I just finishing a Di2 build with 105 chainset. Need long reach brakes but they are easy got.

Thanks - funnily enough that caught my eye the other day, although really I'm after something visibly old skool (lugged, horizontal crossbar, quill stem, forward-swept fork) and hopefully something I can put my own stamp on somewhat; a personalised indulgeance if you will.

I'm lucky enough to already have some modern steel in my Croix De Fer and I think by taking the Thorn frame route I'd pretty much be recreating that.
Your build sounds nice though - interesting choice of Di2

If you want something a little sportier than a laid-back 531 tourer, you could do worse than source a closer-clearance Dawes frame made of Reynolds tubing from the late 80's/early 90's.
I've got an '87-ish Jaguar which is 531 butted main tubes, and a tatty looking '91-ish Response donor made of plain gauge 500 tubing but appears to have identical sporty geometry. Neither was expensive, the 531 bike cost me £40 and the scruffy 500 model was only £19 IIRC. Both were built as 12 speeders. 28mm tyres fit easily but 32mm are very tight on the back and I wouldn't recommend going that large as a slightly out of true wheel could jam in the stays..
Choice really boils down to availability and weight tolerance. A 531 frame will weigh maybe half a pound less than a 501 job, and a pound less than a 500 plain gauge tubeset.
Raleigh frames will obviously be the most plentiful, followed by Dawes then maybe the likes of Falcon and Claud Butler. i have certain misgivings about using a vintage small volume custom frame if modern components are going to be fitted.
If you're going to refinish the paint then it makes sense to source something that's relatively common and has limited collector appeal. Plenty of nice steel out there.

Thanks - tbh I'm not 100% sure what I want, but really my CdF already ticks the touring box and it'd be somewhat pointless to build something similar.

Sounds like you've got some real scores from the prices you're quoting; although I suspect this is a luxury afforded by being happy to sit on your hands and scoop up the bargains..?

What do you reckon to the Dawes Horizon? Saw this one on ebay recently that looked interesting (it apparently previously sold for £115, then went back on with the same seller at £150 with no interest). 7 speed so less brutality required to fit 9sp+ components, although I'm somewhat put off (rightly or wrongly) by the cantilever brakes..

I'm not obsessed with weight but would like something at the lighter end. Gas pipe's out as it's simply not "special" enough and tbh I think I'd be happy with either 531 or 501; preferably the former if for no other reason than the perceived cache it carries.

I agree about low volume frames and originality; and would be very happy rolling round on some half-decent Raleigh metal

Just to add, bike sizing is different for a horizontal top tube frame and you may need a frame that looks large by modern standards to get the bars at a comfortable height. I'm only 5'10" but, to maintain a comfortable drop to the bars of about 4 inches, I need a 23" frame with the stem right up at the "min insert" mark. Most quill stems have a pretty small range of adjustment, and extra-tall ones like a Nitto Technomic look silly on a race bike.

In the 70s, a mere fistful of seatpost was pretty normal. This means standover height is compromised but that isn't really a concern on a road bike. You can see why MTBs adopted the sloping top tube early on, with the need for quick dismounts when it all gets too gnarly!

Ta - this is something I've been trying to get my head around tbh. I'm 99% sold on the modern trend towards quoting reach and stack (although these are still somewhat arbitrary as bar and seat/post geometry are rarely mentioned) and find older sizing a bit ridiculous; especially when many seem to quote seat tube length when this is (in an effective sense anyway) one of the easiest things to change. I guess with older stuff you should be able to get a reasonable idea from ST and TT lengths, assuming geometries won't vary that much.

Funnily enough the setup you mention is pretty much where my Routier is; 22.5" TT with bars at the max height; while the frame's reach and stack are very close to my Genesis (1mm in it on reach, 12mm more stack on the CdF); of course I'd never have known they were this close from quoted measurements.. The bar geometry complicates things though, with the Raleigh having more drop and less reach. Standover height on the Raleigh is certainly "snug"

I'd not want to go any longer on the TT on the Raleigh, although I suppose with its shorter bars I potentially could as the actual reach on the Genesis is a lot more and not an issue, despite me having a pretty short torso. As such I tend to fit "endurance" geometry better than more aggressive race setups; which is probably a good reason to go for a more touring-type frame despite all my protestations so far to the contrary..

Interestingly I’m just considering doing a very similar project. I’ve got a complete Campag Centaur 10 speed group set, BB and a set of Chorus hubs which I’ve had for about 10 years in a box in the garage.

I’m thinking of using a 531c frame from the 1980’s and cold setting the rear if needed, which I’ve done before. My idea is to build up a retro-mod Raleigh Panasonic replica.

My other thought was to buy a used carbon frame set (or complete bike) and build up a modern Raleigh Banana replica with Campagnolo 10 speed running gear.

Sounds like a win - and I believer Campag stuff tends to be a lot more retro-styled and shiny by default; so sounds ideal for a retro-modern build. I'd definitely go with old steel though; far more classy than composite IMO


EDIT: Crikey - lots more replies since I last looked - will get round to them all in time, but now off out for a ride. Ta for all the input

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Sounds like you've got some real scores from the prices you're quoting; although I suspect this is a luxury afforded by being happy to sit on your hands and scoop up the bargains..?

What do you reckon to the Dawes Horizon? Saw this one on ebay recently that looked interesting (it apparently previously sold for £115, then went back on with the same seller at £150 with no interest). 7 speed so less brutality required to fit 9sp+ components, although I'm somewhat put off (rightly or wrongly) by the cantilever brakes.

I'm not obsessed with weight but would like something at the lighter end. Gas pipe's out as it's simply not "special" enough and tbh I think I'd be happy with either 531 or 501; preferably the former if for no other reason than the perceived cache it carries.

I agree about low volume frames and originality; and would be very happy rolling round on some half-decent Raleigh metal


Ta - this is something I've been trying to get my head around tbh. I'm 99% sold on the modern trend towards quoting reach and stack (although these are still somewhat arbitrary as bar and seat/post geometry are rarely mentioned) and find older sizing a bit ridiculous; especially when many seem to quote seat tube length when this is (in an effective sense anyway) one of the easiest things to change. I guess with older stuff you should be able to get a reasonable idea from ST and TT lengths, assuming geometries won't vary that much.

The reason I get the bargains is I'm prepared to wait. I've got plenty of bikes, so it's not like I'm desperate for anything with two wheels so I can get to work. All the immaculate but spendy stuff, all the overpriced junk, all the stuff 300 miles away - I can ignore and wait for the right deals in the right locations. The Dawes 531 and my Ian May 531 are actually my most expensive used purchases! My Raleigh Royal (£30) was probably the best value in terms of purchase cost vs new cost (about £1k today), followed by my Raleigh Gemini 531 hybrid (£20). I was on the lookout for a Royal/Randonneur/Galaxy for about 18 months before the right one came up though. The hybrid I was just lucky with, wrong time of year to sell bikes, right location for me.

The Horizon looks to be a very decent tourer, basically a cheaper Galaxy clone in 501. The frame silhouette looks remarkably similar and they seem to be well regarded bikes. It's way more than I would spend, but I'm not willing to pay the current coronacycling price premium - unless an absolute bargain falls right into my lap I won't be buying anything now until the virus is over with and prices/availability return to normal.

I like old-school frame sizing and the appearance of the bikes it resulted in. Today's compact geometry frames often look like kids toys to me, not bikes for adults! Decent quality road frames have had proportionate geometry for decades in that the larger seat tube lengths usually had longer top tubes, but of course there was some variation between makers and models according to their design philosophy.
My Dawes and Raleigh road frames are all 23 1/2" size, but the TT's on the Dawes are about half an inch longer than the Raleigh, IIRC. The Dawes wheel base is shorter though, because the forks have less rake and the back tyre is closer to the seat tube. Altogether a quicker and more sporty feel, although the Royal is no slouch if I'm in the mood to put the effort in but it never feels as quick as the Dawes even though it can shift.