Bow Roundabout

[2wheelsgeth]

Am I missing something here? Surely it's the junction rather than the lorries that needs to be sorted out? Boris being stubborn again...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15846847

 

[Red Light]

The junction is a factor but Boris is right. Thousands of vehicles big and small negotiate that junction every day without killing cyclists but the two deaths have both been lorries and both drivers were arrested. Overall lorries account for half of London cyclist deaths and HGVs one third. But they represent less than 5% of vehicles on London's roads. So lorries are causing deaths totally out of proportion to their numbers. They are the one thing I take extra care to avoid because my experience is there is a lot of cavalier driving - many of them seem to think they are driving a sports car the way they try and throw them around the streets - and sheer lack of forethought by the drivers e.g. starting overtake manoeuvres they have no hope of completing without pulling back in on a cyclist or bouncing along just off your rear tyre. There are also appalling standards of operation. One driver has now killed twice, one was drunk and on his mobile phone when he killed a cyclist, one was busy checking his pay slips when he killed someone, another seriously needed glasses but wasn't wearing them. And when police did a spot check on lorries in the City a in 2008 the outcome was reported to the London Police Road Safety Forum as follows:

Turning to the issues of lorries, Inspector Aspinall told the meeting about a day of City of London spot checks on HGVs, carried out on 30 September 2008 as part of the Europe-wide Operation Mermaid, which is intended to step up levels of enforcement of road safety laws in relation to lorries. On this one day, 12 lorries were stopped randomly by City Police. Five of those lorries were involved in the construction work for the 2012 Olympics. All of the twelve lorries were breaking the law in at least one way. The offences range included overweight loads (2 cases), mechanical breaches (5 cases), driver hours breaches (5 cases), mobile phone use while driving (2 cases), driving without insurance (2 cases) and no operator license (1 case).​

​

Deal with the lorries and you could halve cyclist deaths in London at a stroke.

 

[dawesome]

The building sites these lorries deliver to often have "ZERO ACCIDENTS!" signs on the gate. Because lorries delivering to the site that may have killed someone don't count. It's as if the death never happened.

This is the main route to the London Olympic Park:

Beyond farce.

 

[2wheelsgeth]

The junction is a factor but Boris is right. Thousands of vehicles big and small negotiate that junction every day without killing cyclists but the two deaths have both been lorries and both drivers were arrested. Overall lorries account for half of London cyclist deaths and HGVs one third. But they represent less than 5% of vehicles on London's roads. So lorries are causing deaths totally out of proportion to their numbers. They are the one thing I take extra care to avoid because my experience is there is a lot of cavalier driving - many of them seem to think they are driving a sports car the way they try and throw them around the streets - and sheer lack of forethought by the drivers e.g. starting overtake manoeuvres they have no hope of completing without pulling back in on a cyclist or bouncing along just off your rear tyre. There are also appalling standards of operation. One driver has now killed twice, one was drunk and on his mobile phone when he killed a cyclist, one was busy checking his pay slips when he killed someone, another seriously needed glasses but wasn't wearing them. And when police did a spot check on lorries in the City a in 2008 the outcome was reported to the London Police Road Safety Forum as follows:

Turning to the issues of lorries, Inspector Aspinall told the meeting about a day of City of London spot checks on HGVs, carried out on 30 September 2008 as part of the Europe-wide Operation Mermaid, which is intended to step up levels of enforcement of road safety laws in relation to lorries. On this one day, 12 lorries were stopped randomly by City Police. Five of those lorries were involved in the construction work for the 2012 Olympics. All of the twelve lorries were breaking the law in at least one way. The offences range included overweight loads (2 cases), mechanical breaches (5 cases), driver hours breaches (5 cases), mobile phone use while driving (2 cases), driving without insurance (2 cases) and no operator license (1 case).​

​

Deal with the lorries and you could halve cyclist deaths in London at a stroke.

A more than fair point, Red Light, but (and I might just be naive) these are all illegal anyway, and the police should be dealing with these cases. As an occasional car driver (sorry), I know that lorries are the most dangerous thing on the roads - surely the police do as well? And I don't understand the mentality of a lorry driver who risks his licence and job by doing these things. Like I say, naive!

 

[subaqua]

The building sites these lorries deliver to often have "ZERO ACCIDENTS!" signs on the gate. Because lorries delivering to the site that may have killed someone don't count. It's as if the death never happened.

This is the main route to the London Olympic Park:

Beyond farce.

get real. there are signs like that because nothing has happened on that site. going by your logic every airport should have a sign saying how many people died on a plane that left that airport.

I have already responded to the sign in the cycle lane and how/why it can happen. its a fairly common one- Hackney have a few at the northern end of the park . pre olympic stuff too. oh and thats not a main route to the park its a main route to westfield, that happens to be next to an olympic park . donch know that cycles are not allowed near the park incase they spontaneously explodiopate

 

[dawesome]

Jenny Jones makes the point that the HSE will not get involved in deaths on the roads, an abdication of responsibility. Your airport comment is just silly, 70% of planes don't fail safety checks, 70% of HGVs in London do:

I rolled up shortly after the driver of a concrete mixer had killed a cyclist on London Wall - turning to get from the offside lane into a narrow street banned to HGV traffic, and cutting up the traffic in the nearside lane - which included the young woman on a bike who went under his wheels.

This was a typical in livery contract - a small operator contracted to drive his trucks in the colours of a well known company. The results of this crash are well known and made a major impact on a key concrete supplier.

It was at the point where the City of London Police were becoming seriously concerned about the number of fatal crashes between construction trucks and 'soft' road users. The truck in this incident had a tally of 2 killed and another in a wheelchair - all young women, and 2 of those crashes with the same driver. This also presses the case to make the culpability track back to the operator, as the same operator names appear on reports of bad driving on local cycling forums. A question also of whether the Traffic Commissioner is effective, or properly supported by the courts, in their role of issuing and revoking both HGV driving licences and the licences to operate trucks and buses.

http://road.cc/content/news/47057-eilidh-cairns-killer-implicated-second-london-lorry-fatality

 

[albion]

"It will examine the design, operation and driving of skip lorries, tipper trucks and cement mixers in the city."

Seems a bit narrow worded to me.

 

[dawesome]

"It will examine the design, operation and driving of skip lorries, tipper trucks and cement mixers in the city."

Seems a bit narrow worded to me.

Boris was asked directly how we can stop companies who are happy to employ drivers like Dennis Putz, Mr Putz had twice previously been jailed for driving offences: six months for reckless driving in 1995 and another jail term in 2003 after 16 counts of driving without a licence. 16 counts.

Thames Materials has previously had its hauliers licence revoked by the authorities, only to have it restored on appeal, after what are believed to have been proceedural errors.


Boris replied that "perhaps the most vital thing is to educate cyclists":

http://www.stockwellnews.com/2011/03/boris-johnson-on-catriona-patels-death.html

I'm not sure how you can educate cyclists to avoid getting killed by drunk drivers on the phone.

 

[subaqua]

Jenny Jones makes the point that the HSE will not get involved in deaths on the roads, an abdication of responsibility. Your airport comment is just silly, 70% of planes don't fail safety checks, 70% of HGVs in London do:

I rolled up shortly after the driver of a concrete mixer had killed a cyclist on London Wall - turning to get from the offside lane into a narrow street banned to HGV traffic, and cutting up the traffic in the nearside lane - which included the young woman on a bike who went under his wheels.

This was a typical in livery contract - a small operator contracted to drive his trucks in the colours of a well known company. The results of this crash are well known and made a major impact on a key concrete supplier.

It was at the point where the City of London Police were becoming seriously concerned about the number of fatal crashes between construction trucks and 'soft' road users. The truck in this incident had a tally of 2 killed and another in a wheelchair - all young women, and 2 of those crashes with the same driver. This also presses the case to make the culpability track back to the operator, as the same operator names appear on reports of bad driving on local cycling forums. A question also of whether the Traffic Commissioner is effective, or properly supported by the courts, in their role of issuing and revoking both HGV driving licences and the licences to operate trucks and buses.

http://road.cc/content/news/47057-eilidh-cairns-killer-implicated-second-london-lorry-fatality

now you are moving away from the point . where does the 70% figure come from. I wager that 70% of any vehicle 2 wheeled or not, in London would fail "safety checks". a safety check is checking the tyre pressures 34 psi wont make a difference againnst 35psi but its still a fail. a inoperative headlamp is still a fail but in bright daylight it isn't going to make a difference.

a small percentage of accidents are caused by drink drivers , that means a large percentage are caused by stone cold sober drivers - does that mean we should all drive drunk ?? of course it doesn't. statistics can be used to demonstrate anything you want

its not just about drivers its about all road users and the layout of roads. Thats whats wrong. singling out one thing ( can you single out more than one thing ?? ) is never going to make any headway . it needs to be multiple approaches.

2 wheels good 4 wheels bad seems to be the underlying current in commuting and thats boll**

yes there are lorries and drivers that don't take proper care , but not the majority. thats like saying most coppers are baton weilding thugs because a certain number have been seen doing this.or most cyclists are red light jumpers who ride on the pavement. its just not true If skip lorry drivers were bad then the Bywaters driver(s) that gave me a huge gap this morning would have mown me down in an instant .

Now Taxi drivers are another story- well regulated but a law unto themselves as the Usery body is toothless.

 

[dawesome]

now you are moving away from the point . where does the 70% figure come from..

The decision to axe the Commercial Vehicle Education Unit (CVEU) comes in a year when 8 of the 10 cyclists fatalities in London have involved collisions with lorries.
70% of the vehicles checked by the unit since 2005 have been found to be defective, and it is the only such unit in the country.

http://lcc.org.uk/articles/cyclists-condemn-mayors-decision-to-disband-police-lorry-safety-unit

The appalling safety record of HGVs in London is very much the point. This isn't "Two wheels good, four wheels bad" - that's absurd, it's a lazy argument tactic-ascribe to someone an agenda so you can claim they're prejudiced, it's hackneyed and tired.

yes there are lorries and drivers that don't take proper care , but not the majority.

The majority of lorries stopped failed basic safety checks. The majority of drivers admit speeding. In cyclist/vehicle RTCs in the majority of cases the driver is at fault. This isn't an agenda, it's not hating drivers, it's not implying superiority, it's stating basic facts.

 

[subaqua]

The decision to axe the Commercial Vehicle Education Unit (CVEU) comes in a year when 8 of the 10 cyclists fatalities in London have involved collisions with lorries.
70% of the vehicles checked by the unit since 2005 have been found to be defective, and it is the only such unit in the country.

http://lcc.org.uk/articles/cyclists-condemn-mayors-decision-to-disband-police-lorry-safety-unit

The appalling safety record of HGVs in London is very much the point. This isn't "Two wheels good, four wheels bad" - that's absurd, it's a lazy argument tactic-ascribe to someone an agenda so you can claim they're prejudiced, it's hackneyed and tired.



The majority of lorries stopped failed basic safety checks. The majority of drivers admit speeding. In cyclist/vehicle RTCs in the majority of cases the driver is at fault. This isn't an agenda, it's not hating drivers, it's not implying superiority, it's stating basic facts.

it is an agenda though . the OP said about sorting road and driving - you jumped in about driving and lorries . thast an agenda.

I also said about multiple approaches to sorting the issue not just about drivers and vehicles. you used a picture that was explained toi you in detail months ago, and then say I am hackneyed and tired. Hmmm

and 70% of those checked - not 70% of ALL. big big difference. if it was 70% OF ALL I would be making a huge fuss.

out of interest ther have been 20 deaths in construction so far this year , how muh space has this got in the news. exactly. are the construction guys lives any diofferent to a cyclists ?? No , they are not.

 

[dawesome]

it is an agenda though . the OP said about sorting road and driving - you jumped in about driving and lorries . thast an agenda.

I also said about multiple approaches to sorting the issue not just about drivers and vehicles. you used a picture that was explained toi you in detail months ago, and then say I am hackneyed and tired. Hmmm

Anyone who has an alternative opinion has an agenda? I've never said road layout is irrelevant, I've explained that HGVs in London have a shocking safety record. Ascribing agendas to people because they have an opinion on making the roads safer is just..odd. I think you're spoiling for an argument which isn't what the threads about.

oh and thats not a main route to the park its a main route to westfield

That picture is of the Stratford Highway Eastbound, leading to the Olympic Park. It's the main road to the park. 70% of Olympic visitors will enter the park through Westfield.

 

[dawesome]

Ah, you edited:

and 70% of those checked - not 70% of ALL. big big difference. if it was 70% OF ALL I would be making a huge fuss.

Nearly 47% of foreign vehicles stopped were found to have dangerous defects, compared with 37.5% for UK vehicles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8216905.stm

If you search on Operation Mermaid you can find plenty of other examples. I'm saying that when random lorries are stopped and checked and almost half have serious defects it suggests a pretty serious problem.


http://www.brake.org.uk/facts/enforcing-the-safety-of-commercial-vehicles-in-the-uk.htm

 

[Nortones2]

Jenny Jones makes the point that the HSE will not get involved in deaths on the roads, an abdication of responsibility. Your airport comment is just silly, 70% of planes don't fail safety checks, 70% of HGVs in London do:

I rolled up shortly after the driver of a concrete mixer had killed a cyclist on London Wall - turning to get from the offside lane into a narrow street banned to HGV traffic, and cutting up the traffic in the nearside lane - which included the young woman on a bike who went under his wheels.

This was a typical in livery contract - a small operator contracted to drive his trucks in the colours of a well known company. The results of this crash are well known and made a major impact on a key concrete supplier.

It was at the point where the City of London Police were becoming seriously concerned about the number of fatal crashes between construction trucks and 'soft' road users. The truck in this incident had a tally of 2 killed and another in a wheelchair - all young women, and 2 of those crashes with the same driver. This also presses the case to make the culpability track back to the operator, as the same operator names appear on reports of bad driving on local cycling forums. A question also of whether the Traffic Commissioner is effective, or properly supported by the courts, in their role of issuing and revoking both HGV driving licences and the licences to operate trucks and buses.

http://road.cc/content/news/47057-eilidh-cairns-killer-implicated-second-london-lorry-fatality

HSE is not staffed or equipped to deal with road accidents. It has even less funding now - if it dealt with road accidents it would be even less able to deal with it's remit on other activities. The police are 24 hour emergency set-up, with powers to stop vehicles etc. They have the responsibility and the facilities, but the Home Office don't make road safety a priority, and the Government are equally inert.

 

[ianrauk]

[QUOTE 1622738, member: 3143"]Interesting piece in the Evening Standard today. Article on how a cyclist was knocked over and almost killed by a bus. Witness described how the bus was indicating to pull over to the left an the cylist tried to overtake on the inside (undertake). Some cyclists need educating and imo Boris has made a good point.[/quote]


Yep, read this about an hour ago. He claims to be an experienced commuting cyclist of 12 years yet undertakes a bus...