Box junction fines
- Thread starter Ludwig
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Over The Hill
Guru
- Location
- Ridden off into the sunset
You have replied to my thread. You therefore incur a charge of £130.00 for doing this (reduced to £65.00 if you pay within a week).
^^ Is this fair an OK with you?
I think it is not as you were not aware of the charge being applicable. If by doing something a charge is payable then the person needs to be made aware of this. This is universal and on the road any fines or charges are in areas where notice of the charge is given.
I do not dispute that stopping in a box junction is wrong but that is not the issue. It is about a local law in which a fine is levied where the person incurring fine is not given notice of it.
The same cameras could be used to impose fines for not looking in the mirror, not indicting, driving too close, or any other aspect of the highway code. Are you all happy to run the gauntlet of such fines? Or should the fine only apply to some elements of the highway code?
Over The Hill
Guru
- Location
- Ridden off into the sunset
[QUOTE 3326726, member: 45"]How many times do you think you would be fined for breaking the law?[/QUOTE]
You are probably making the point that by going through the first fine process you have been given due notice of the fines and so are deterred.
This rather supports my point that it is not deterring but unjustly fining.
You are probably making the point that by going through the first fine process you have been given due notice of the fines and so are deterred.
This rather supports my point that it is not deterring but unjustly fining.
Over The Hill
Guru
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- Ridden off into the sunset
They indicate a rule within the highway code. The highway code details penalties or consequences of breaking such rules. You have sufficient warning of the box junction rule as you are required to know the highway code before you are given a licence to drive. (so rule and consequences are set out)
The fine is not in the highway code, it is not shown to the driver by notice or brought to their attention in any way.
Can you tell me how I as a driver I would be given sufficient warning that I would incur a £130 fine if I wrongly stopped in a box junction?
swee'pea99
Squire
Seems to me there is a valid issue about longer vehicles. Realistically, there are junctions where if every HGV driver played strictly by the rules, the junction would pretty much cease to function. And unfortunately, whereas human enforcers can use their judgement to turn a blind eye in some circs, to apply the spirit of the law in preference to the strict letter, CCTV cameras have no such 'judgement', and the people who sit behind them are very often positively incentivised if not required to apply a zero tolerance policy, which benefits the local authority's finances, but not the public good - let alone any notion of what's fair.
swee'pea99
Squire
"If you don't play by the rules you risk getting your wrist slapped." Will that do?
Piemaster
Guru
- Location
- UK City of Culture
It's not a local law. It's a MUST NOT so a legal requirement in the HC so I'm quite aware there may be a penalty if I was to contravene it, thanks. Relevant law as per 'The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002' as in the link I provided.
Enforcement of the law with cameras may be more of a local issue for which you believe there should be warning notices, but even then there is no requirement for the Police or local authority to put up warning notices at any box junction/bus lane before standing there and handing out fixed penalties. Your comparison with posts to this thread is irrelevant.
Archie_tect
De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
- Location
- Northumberland
I am curious to know how the automatic cameras are activated... there may be situations where traffic is moving across the junction but if the camera was to take a photo, you couldn't tell the vehicles were moving?
Piemaster
Guru
- Location
- UK City of Culture
'Decent behaviour' - there's your reason. Seems to disappear in a lot of people once they get in a car and no longer have to make eye contact with the rest of the world.
Over The Hill
Guru
- Location
- Ridden off into the sunset
No!!
Rules are defines as
"one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity."
The fine element is not explicit or understood by the driver.
Over The Hill
Guru
- Location
- Ridden off into the sunset
I am quite happy for a policeman to enforce the highway code. I have agreed to abide by the highway code and the penalties within it by applying for a licence to drive.
Can you see anything in the highway code allowing any local authority to make up a fine system and apply it to an individual part of the highway code? Where is their authority to do this?
A fixed penalty notice given out by the police is a different thing and what the LA authority is giving out is quite different. It is a fine not a penalty. They are quite different.
Archie_tect
De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
- Location
- Northumberland
This was a photo on the website found searching for 'automatic cameras on box junctions'... in this example if your exit is clear you can enter the box juntion, so only the grey Corsa should have been fined... be interesting to know what the outcome was in this case. To be fair it isn't clear whether the traffic had started to move forward beyond the black car with it's brake lights showing, enabling the Corsa to move out, because it isn't video footage... see what I mean?
Over The Hill
Guru
- Location
- Ridden off into the sunset
I guess it takes a shot each second and if the car has not moved in two shots then it spits out a fine.
Over The Hill
Guru
- Location
- Ridden off into the sunset
This was a photo on the website found searching for 'automatic cameras on box junctions'... in this example if your exit is clear you can enter the box juntion, so only the grey Corsa should have been fined... be interesting to know what the outcome was in this case. To be fair it isn't clear whether the traffic had started to move forward beyond the black car with it's brake lights showing, enabling the Corsa to move out, because it isn't video footage... see what I mean?
Lets call it "in breach of box junction rule" rather than "should have been fined".
What is the Grey Vauxhall doing that the other three are not doing. I see four cars all in the box when they had no clear exit from it. I think all four are in breach of highway code rule.
Black Honda is turning right but is in the wrong by coming out of his original lane and blocking his oncoming.
What penalties for any driving offence are defined in or given in the Highway Code?
