Box junction fines

[Archie_tect]

That's good news- pity nobody'd said that earlier!

 

[Over The Hill]

[QUOTE 3327937, member: 45"]If you want to know the second bit you can easily find out. Ignorance is no defence.

Look, one of the roles of the local authority is to keep traffic flowing. Idiots prevent this by breaking a law that they are responsible for knowing in return for being given a driving license.

You're complaining about a LA doing its duty for the good of all of us, because idiots get preventative fines for doing things that they know they shouldn't.[/QUOTE]

We have restrictions on parking - each has road markings AND signs. London has red routes - with their own special markings to show they are non-standard and there are signs. The congestion zone is publicised and there are signs. Each road that has a toll on it has a sign letting you know. Each car park operated by the council has a sign showing if there are any penalties. There is an excepted pattern here. Any step away from the standard measures in the highway code are flagged up to make the motorist aware.
The signs prevent infringement.
National rules are there with an assumption that you are aware of them. Local rules are flagged up. Same as towns that have a "no alcohol" policy in some parts. Signs show this.
Now I just do not accept that it is right for a special rule to be imposed in some places without us being made aware of the rule. Clearly you lot seem to think it is OK.

 

[Over The Hill]

[QUOTE 3327933, member: 45"]You as a driver know that if you break the law you're subject to the consequences. It doesn't need to go any further than that unless you either have a problem with the authority or you need to know the punishment so that you can decide whether the law is worth obeying.[/QUOTE]

Many many laws set punishment at a level to act as a deterrent. It is rather naïve to think otherwise. We actually do weigh up the consequences of infringement all the time. I guess you have never cycled on the pavement then.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Now I just do not accept that it is right for a special rule to be imposed in some places without us being made aware of the rule. Clearly you lot seem to think it is OK

But there is no local rule. All box junctions apply in same way as set out in Highway Code Rule 174. The wording of that rule is MUST NOT with the statutory authority quoted.

The only difference is that in London, and possibly parts of Wales, enforcement rests with the Local Authority rather than the Police. Either could use officers or cameras to detect the infringement. In London it's the Councils that do it with cameras. Either way, once caught, you can either pay a fine or defend yourself in court or by appealing to the Tribunal.

I genuinely cannot see any difference of principle.

 

[Beebo]

The cars are performing a Spandau Ballet?

to cut a long story short, they have to get through the barricades.

 

[benb]

We have restrictions on parking - each has road markings AND signs. London has red routes - with their own special markings to show they are non-standard and there are signs. The congestion zone is publicised and there are signs. Each road that has a toll on it has a sign letting you know. Each car park operated by the council has a sign showing if there are any penalties. There is an excepted pattern here. Any step away from the standard measures in the highway code are flagged up to make the motorist aware.
The signs prevent infringement.
National rules are there with an assumption that you are aware of them. Local rules are flagged up. Same as towns that have a "no alcohol" policy in some parts. Signs show this.
Now I just do not accept that it is right for a special rule to be imposed in some places without us being made aware of the rule. Clearly you lot seem to think it is OK.

Why would you need signs telling you the penalty before you decide whether to break a law or not?

 

[Over The Hill]

[QUOTE 3329697, member: 45"]Parking restriction signs don't list fines. They don't even tell you that you will be fined so no, there's no accepted practice.

You know what the regulations are. You're aware that there are penalties for disobeying them. That's really all you need to know to not do it.[/QUOTE]

If you are happy with that setup then that is up to you.

 

[Archie_tect]

That would be the Corsa and Rover drivers... [tick]

 

[Over The Hill]

So the the black Honda is in the clear but the MG, Corsa & possibly the Renault are in hot water?..

But everyone here seem quite happy that the Renault with his tail still in the box gets a £130 fine. He is breaking the rules.
I also think the Black Honda is in the wrong as the turn right allowance is only when waiting to cross the oncoming traffic NOT blocking the oncoming traffic. (He should have waited in his lane until his way out was clear and then turned right.)
So that's £520

This perhaps illustrates the problem in that a policeman will operate some discretion. There is an issue with the rule that you could enter the box while your exit is clear but then have a car cut out in front of you making you have to stop.
Also, we all will stop and let emergency vehicles through at junctions despite road rules. Will we feel so inclined if it is going to cost us £130?

 

[Over The Hill]

But there is no local rule. All box junctions apply in same way as set out in Highway Code Rule 174. The wording of that rule is MUST NOT with the statutory authority quoted.

The only difference is that in London, and possibly parts of Wales, enforcement rests with the Local Authority rather than the Police. Either could use officers or cameras to detect the infringement. In London it's the Councils that do it with cameras. Either way, once caught, you can either pay a fine or defend yourself in court or by appealing to the Tribunal.

I genuinely cannot see any difference of principle.

But a vast difference in practice!!

 

[vernon]

This perhaps illustrates the problem in that a policeman will operate some discretion. There is an issue with the rule that you could enter the box while your exit is clear but then have a car cut out in front of you making you have to stop.

You shouldn't have entered the box without seeing that there was space for you to exit it.

 

[vernon]

But a vast difference in practice!!

Surely the wise motorist assumes that enforcement and its ensuing penalties is inevitable. You could always take issue with the councils that don't enforce the rules if you are unhappy with the state of play.

 

[GrasB]

I also think the Black Honda is in the wrong as the turn right allowance is only when waiting to cross the oncoming traffic NOT blocking the oncoming traffic. (He should have waited in his lane until his way out was clear and then turned right.)

Please point to the exact bit of the regulation that says this?

But everyone here seem quite happy that the Renault with his tail still in the box gets a £130 fine. He is breaking the rules.

Why is the black Renault exempt from the rules?

I also think the Black Honda is in the wrong as the turn right allowance is only when waiting to cross the oncoming traffic NOT blocking the oncoming traffic. (He should have waited in his lane until his way out was clear and then turned right.)

I'm not exactly sure how you made this out from the regulations..

So that's £520

I think we finally get where you're coming from... any fine for something which doesn't meet your idea of what's dangerous or bad is a stealth tax & so shouldn't be applied

This perhaps illustrates the problem in that a policeman will operate some discretion. There is an issue with the rule that you could enter the box while your exit is clear but then have a car cut out in front of you making you have to stop.

This doesn't make sense as if this is the situation you couldn't see the junction to be clear to start with.

Also, we all will stop and let emergency vehicles through at junctions despite road rules. Will we feel so inclined if it is going to cost us £130?

Stopping in a junction for emergency services? WHAT THE ****? You want to make sure the junction is completely clear not clog it up!

 

[BrynCP]

Stopping in a junction for emergency services? WHAT THE ****? You want to make sure the junction is completely clear not clog it up!

I observe a lot of stupidity when people see flashing flights. People stopping beside traffic islands, on junctions and even before bends on solid white lines or people so desperate to do what they think is right (i.e. pull up) that they pull into a gap with half their car out, with other cars behind them now unable to progress at all!

 

[Dan B]

. There is an issue with the rule that you could enter the box while your exit is clear but then have a car cut out in front of you making you have to stop.

People have successfully appealed in that situation.