Brake levers and gear shifters compatibility

[Ben M]

I recently purchased a Dawes tandem of 1997 vintage.
It's an absolutely beautiful bike, and I'm chuffed to bit with it, such a sexy blue!

The only issue with it is the brakes; it has cantilevers. Cantilevers I can just about put up with on my hack bike, but on a tandem with ~125kg of people + touring gear + my desire to live, the stopping power just doesn't cut the mustard!

The current setup is flat bars with Shimano Deore LX (1997 vintage remember) levers with built in shifters and matching dérailleurs, with 21 gears.

Now I know that canti levers don't pull as much cable as V brake levers, so whilst changing the brakes themselves is a straight swap, new levers will be needed, which also means that new shifters will be needed

Now my question is; what shifters are compatible with my dérailleurs? I am looking to buy used, as I don't want to spend a fortune on this.

I've found online some "shimano ezi-fire shifters st-ef29 ci-deck 7 speed pair" which are V brake levers with shifters built on, would these work with my dérailleurs? So the only other components I would need are V brakes themselves.

The other thing is that the bike has flat bars, I find drop bars much more comfortable. I think that if I am to be changing the gear shifters and brake levers I may as well go the whole way and change the handlebars as well to something better for me. If I were to change to drop bars, would levers like "shimano rsx 7 speed STI shifters" work with my dérailleurs? What brakes would work with these; would V brakes work or would I need to change to calipers like on a road bike?

The other avenue of possibility is that I'm not limited on a tandem in the same way that someone on a "half bike" is, in that I have a second person with their own set of handlebars. This fact is used by some tandems which have an extra brake, usually a drum brake, fitted to the back wheel which is operated by the stoker. Now, am I right in thinking that to fit a mechanical disc brake to the rear would require buying a lever, a rotor and the brake, as well as a new hub (i.e. taking the wheel apart) as well as getting a bike shop to braze a fitting onto my frame (it's reynolds 531, and I gather it would cost £50 for this brazing + paint) What about fitting a rear drum brake? Would that require the same, less the brazing, i.e. a new hub, brake and a lever? I think this sort of solution isn't really the best price/benefit ratio though to be honest.

 

[HLaB]

I took easy fire shifters of my bike (flat bar) and swapped to sora sti and dropped bar, so I don't think there's any compatibility issues on the gearing as long as its all shimano but as you say canti levers (or imc sti levers) pull less cable than v'brake levers. I fitted problem solver, travel agents to improve this but for a fully loaded tourer I don't think they'd be that effective.

 

[Ben M]

I took easy fire shifters of my bike (flat bar) and swapped to sora sti and dropped bar, so I don't think there's any compatibility issues on the gearing as long as its all shimano but as you say canti levers (or imc sti levers) pull less cable than v'brake levers. I fitted problem solver, travel agents to improve this but for a fully loaded tourer I don't think they'd be that effective.

Hi, thanks for the fast reply!

So do you mean that shimano STI shifters pull as much cable as cantilever levers, so wouldn't work with V brakes?

I've heard travel agents mentioned, how do they work? I thought that they were for using V brake levers with cantilever brakes. Why do you not think that they'd be effective on a heavy bike, are they not very effective for hard braking?

 

[HLaB]

Hi, thanks for the fast reply!

So do you mean that shimano STI shifters pull as much cable as cantilever levers, so wouldn't work with V brakes?

I've heard travel agents mentioned, how do they work? I thought that they were for using V brake levers with cantilever brakes. Why do you not think that they'd be effective on a heavy bike, are they not very effective for hard braking?

Yip, Sti levers pull the correct amount of cable for side pull and canti lever brakes but don't pull enough for v brakes. The rudimentary fix are the travel agents they can eirther reduce or increase the pull. In the case of increase they pull a small wheel in the centre of the unit which is linked to a larger wheel which pull the cable a further distance (To decrease the pull would be visa versa big to small). They improved the braking performance of my bike but they are not as effective at stopping as my bikes that have sti's and dual pivots (side pull), I would be dubious as to their effectiveness on a heavier bike.

 

[MacB]

I tried the travel agents and didn't like them, your choices are:-

v-brakes - travel agent or v-brake specific lever, generally flatbar ones but Tektro do the RL520 for drop bars which are great, I use them. If you want integrated shifting, STI/Ergo/Double Tap(Shimano/Campag/SRAM) then it needs to be v's plus travel agents, cantis, dual pivots or road specific mechanical disc brakes, obviously the latter requires disc fittings on frame. The dual pivots will generally limit tyre size, assuming your frame hasn't already, and the max is generally 28mm. I ended up using v-brakes, Tektro drop bar levers and bar end shifters, these are like old fashioned downtube shifter that mount in the end of drop handlebars. You can also get mounts that allow you to put the thumb shifters up on the flat part of drop bars. Also cantis are not all made equal and some are more highly rated, the Tektro CR520/720 are one such.

It really does depend on what you want to spend and also your personal preferences. For the future my first choice would be road specific disc brakes. But this would cost hundreds to retrofit to a tandem, disc tabs for rear/new forks, disc brakes, new hubs or wheelset, bars, controls.

 

[Ben M]

Right, thanks for all of your help MacB. I've done some thinking and some research and decided to go with drop bars.

Now bar-end shifters are ridiculously expensive, and I'd rather not have downtube shifters.

Now I was thinking about my friend's cyclo-cross bike, with his secondary brake levers, and I came across this. Now I still don't know how secondary levers work. How do setups on cyclo-cross bikes work? did you figure it out in the end?

My current thinking is that a good solution, if I can work out how to have multiple brake levers, is to buy some drop bars, some shimano 21speed gear lever/ brake units as well as some of those tektro RL520s you mentioned.

 

[MacB]

Ah Ben, welcome to a world of pain ok I'll try to give a 'short' summary, I've also done some details on Chugsys thread:-

The Tektro RL520 are drop bar levers for V-brakes, Dia compe do a set as well, these look like regular drop bar levers with hoods but obviously have no shifting capacity. They work very well with v-brakes and I've been happy with them however you don't have the usual barrel adjuster that you get with a flat bar v-brake lever so I changed the noodle(little curved lead pipe) to one with a built in adjuster.

Cross top levers are the ones that go on the tops of drop bars and, unfortunately, nearly all are designed for short pull brakes only, ie anything but v-brakes. They work on an inline basis so the cable from the main brake lever runs through them with a break in the cable housing. They operate by pushing on the housing rather than pulling on the cable as per the main lever. I have read reports of them feeling mushy but tend to put that down to them being poorly fitted/setup. They should make no difference to your main lever braking and I would tend to think of them as a tool for scrubbing speed when just cruising or in traffic, rather than as the main brake. for example I would always descend in the drops using the main levers. I've found two sets of crosstops that work with v-brakes, available in the UK are Pauls Levers but they are about £85 a pair. They work with either long or short pull brakes via a moveable pivot point. Tektro do make a set but don't import them to Europe, you can buy them through Rivbike.com but international shipping is $50. I prefer the Tektro ones as they have a barrel adjuster which the Pauls ones don't, so no need for adjustable noodles.

I've not actually installed any with v-brakes yet, the price was too high and I've found I'm pretty comfortable with the main brake lever only. I did look at mini-v's as well but again hard to get hold of and variable reports. Plus I now plan on moving from v-brakes to discs so will be able to just use bog standard crosstops at about £20 a set. My preference for v-brakes was due to a desire to be able to run bigger tyres and the ease of set up and maintenance compared to cantis. I also wanted to be able to standardise all our bikes to make bits as interchangeable as possible re mechanical issues etc. I now see the future of v-brakes as pretty limited especially now that disc brakes are legal for all types of Cross racing.

I think the drop bars are the right move but I'm afraid there just isn't a cheap option. I'd be tempted to do it a bit at a time and prioritise. Maybe keep existing setup and start with getting the rear converted to a disc brake, I wouldn't go down the v-brake route as I think it'll lead to a dead end now. I'd go:-

Get rear of frame fitted with disc tab - £60
Change front forks to disc ones but with canti posts - £80
Buy new disc wheelset - £180
Buy BB7 disc brakes, includes rotors and pads - £120
Buy drop bars, STI levers and crosstop levers - £200

Jeez, that comes to £640, this is where do it yourself lets you down, probably better to source a new bike with the bits you need and sell what you won't want.

 

[Ben M]

Thank you for taking the time to post such a lengthy and in-depth answer. But I think that you missed what my real question was.

Can I use an ordinary gear lever in the same way as cross top levers?

I as because I want to use drop bars with V brakes and tektro drop bar levers. Now as for gear shifting; I don't want to use downtube shifters, and bar-end shifters are ridiculously expensive. So I was thinking of putting a set of v brake levers with built in gear shifters on the tops of the bars, a la cyclo-cross style, would I be able to set up these levers to operate the brakes, as well as the drop levers?

 

[MacB]

Thank you for taking the time to post such a lengthy and in-depth answer. But I think that you missed what my real question was.

Can I use an ordinary gear lever in the same way as cross top levers?

I as because I want to use drop bars with V brakes and tektro drop bar levers. Now as for gear shifting; I don't want to use downtube shifters, and bar-end shifters are ridiculously expensive. So I was thinking of putting a set of v brake levers with built in gear shifters on the tops of the bars, a la cyclo-cross style, would I be able to set up these levers to operate the brakes, as well as the drop levers?

Aha, short answer not as you describe but it can be done, will be tricky but not too expensive. The regular v-brake flat bar levers won't allow the cable to run through them and on to the drop bar levers so you'd need two seperate cable runs and a splitter. Cables from both brake levers run to the splitter and one carries on to the brake itself, they work in the same way as the inline levers would. you'd need a Problem Solvers Cable doubler, 2:1 ratio, bit pricey at £40ish each and fiddly to set up. It's like a little sealed cyclinder, I'm sure I found another which is more of an open clamp but can't put my finger on it now, it was cheaper as well, maybe from JTek engineering.

Then you also need to get the flat bar controls on to the top of the drops, irrititatingly they don't come with open hinged clamps. I'd recommend using a dual control unit, so that you only have to adjust one clamp, then it's metal file and elbow grease. Though I'll have a root around, I have a 9 speed trigger shifter pod set that I did this for and have no use for now. Could let you have them cheap(no more than £20, need to check what I paid for them) assuming they'd work with the 7 speed stuff, I don't see why not, but maybe someone else can verify. It does get a bit crowded on the tops if you do this but they definitely worked ok. That would just leave the secondary brake lever to sort, I'd be more tempted to get v-brake specific than to go the cable doubler route. As you can see from the Problem Solvers one you'd be spending £80-90 anyway, at that price I'd rather import a set from Rivbike, slightly cheaper even with the international shipping. Easier to maintain, come with barrel adjuster and most mechanics will be used to dealing with them, unlike cable doubling options. To begin with I'd just sling the shifter pods on the top, the Tektro levers on the drops and see how it all feels. The inline crosstops can be added at any time easily. They do come with open clamp designs, all you do is take the inner out, cut the outer housing to slot in the extra lever and then feed the inner back through and re-tension.

If you want the pods I don't mind you trying them first and then deciding on buy or not buy, as long as you don't break them I've also got some reasonable v-brakes I could let you have for a fair price(think cheap again inc pads). Let me know and I'll take some pics and upload them to help you decide.....cheers.....Al