Brookes saddle users - advice needed

[Lien Sdrawde]

I got myself a second hand B17 standard of (fleabay) and have finally got it too a comfy position - which is a lot more 'nose up' than other saddles ive tried - but the saddle seems to have quite a bit of 'give' in it.

The bolt at the front for tightening the tension doesnt fit any of my spanners

So, will a LBS be able to help?

and just how taught should it be?

Thanks, Neil

 

[Ian H]

http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/spareparts/maintenance+products/

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

Just stuck my calipers on mine: 13mm.

With all due respect to Ian H, £6.45 for a spanner which will see use (assuming it is just for the saddle), once a year (if that) is a bit steep. Like Campagnolo, Apple, Sony etc there is a hefty premium to be paid for the Brooks brand.

Similarly, don't spend £11.45 (that is obscene profiteering) for a tin of Proofide: it is just Dubbin, a generic product which has been used since the middle-ages to condition leather; expect to pay a third of that.

How taught? Well there shouldn't be any slack in the leather, but you don't want to stretch it either. A well cared for Brooks will outlive at least one owner, if not two, so that gives you an idea of how infrequently they should need adjusting.

Too much Dubbin is the usual cause of saggy saddles, so use sparingly.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

proofhide is expensive, true. but dubbin it ain't.

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

proofhide is expensive, true. but dubbin it ain't.

I did start a thread on this subject and didn't get a conclusive answer and from my own research I couldn't establish any "magic ingredient" in Proofide.

Can you explain please?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

based of years of use of both products, they don't behave in the same way, leading me to conclude they are not the same formulation.

 

[bobcat]

proofhide is expensive, true. but dubbin it ain't.

"Dubbin it ain't", but work it does!

 

[Manonabike]

1/2 turn is sufficient - but if you read more around this forum you will find that some people, including me, never use the spanner to adjust the tension.

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

More detail please! In what ways do they behave differently? You've two saddles, one which gets Brooks and one which doesn't?

I'm loathe to argue with your wealth of experience, but I don't understand how two products which are both used to condition and waterproof leather can be so different and so specific; surely if Proofide was superior to generic Dubbin, then it would be used in applications other than bike saddles.

I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of it and if you can explain how Proofide is different and better, then I will (grudgingly) cough-up, but to date I have only heard "the company line" (and I don't mean just from you).

 

[bobcat]

I talk nicely to the lady in LBS and persuade her to do it for me! Find a shop with someone that you can flirt working in and problem solved.

 

[Ian H]

Just stuck my calipers on mine: 13mm.

With all due respect to Ian H, £6.45 for a spanner which will see use (assuming it is just for the saddle), once a year (if that) is a bit steep. Like Campagnolo, Apple, Sony etc there is a hefty premium to be paid for the Brooks brand.

Similarly, don't spend £11.45 (that is obscene profiteering) for a tin of Proofide: it is just Dubbin, a generic product which has been used since the middle-ages to condition leather; expect to pay a third of that.

How taught? Well there shouldn't be any slack in the leather, but you don't want to stretch it either. A well cared for Brooks will outlive at least one owner, if not two, so that gives you an idea of how infrequently they should need adjusting.

Too much Dubbin is the usual cause of saggy saddles, so use sparingly.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting he should buy from there, just giving a link to show what it is.

As for Proofide, it's the dog's knees for conditioning leather saddles. Old-fashioned dubbin will over soften the leather and weaken it.

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

Understood Ian, no need to apologise.

As for Dubbin vs Proofide, can you explain the difference? From what I have read, an excess of either is the cause of problems; nothing I have read has convinced me that there is any difference between the two.

Whenever I ask the question, the only answer I get is "just because it is", which you must agree is not convincing.

I'll say it again: Proofide is Dubbin. As such the exact recipe will differ from one brand to another, however there is no reason to spend nearly twelve pounds on a tin, when a four pound tin will do the same job.

Even Brooks admit that Proofide is Dubbin (quoted from their website):
"Q > I have a perfectly good tin of Dubbin. Would this be harmful to my Brooks saddle?
A > We recommend to use only Proofide [er... obviously], as we cannot know all ingredients of the different leather conditioners on the market. I guess that Dubbin could also work, if I trust what I found about it on Wikipedia [that sums-up how authoritative and exhaustive Brooks are on the subject: "I looked it up on Wikipedia".], but we cannot guarantee... "Dubbin is a wax product used to soften, condition and waterproof leather. It consists of natural wax, oil and tallow"."

Brooks got bought out and now have a bunch of corporate accountants and marketing types swarming all over them gibbering about brand value and maximising something or other; hence twelve quid for Dubbin and six and a half for a spanner: RIP OFF.

 

[Lien Sdrawde]

My LBS (ive only tried one) doesn't have a spanner that will - fit. (he also says he only uses baby lotion on his brookes at £1.70 for morrisons own brand).
My small mole wrench can get in and has just about managed to turn the nut a 1/2 rotation.
When I press firmly with my thumb (almost as firmly as I can but not quite), i'd say I can depress the centre hole of the three about a cm, and the 'wings' on each side of the saddle flare about a cm. As a rough guide, is this about right, or should there be very very little movement?

 

[Davidc]

My Brooks saddles have all come with a spanner. I'll have a look in a couple of boxes of bits tomorrow and see if I've still got an old one (don't hold your breath, I threw out everything useful and kept all the junk when I last moved house in 2004).

I think Greg's right. Dubbin is different. I've been using Brooks saddles since 1967. My 1967 bike came with a little kit of proofide and a cloth. I bought my second tin of Proofide in 2009. That's how long it lasts so the annual cost is really quite low and it's worth getting the right stuff.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

More detail please! In what ways do they behave differently? You've two saddles, one which gets Brooks and one which doesn't?

I'm loathe to argue with your wealth of experience, but I don't understand how two products which are both used to condition and waterproof leather can be so different and so specific; surely if Proofide was superior to generic Dubbin, then it would be used in applications other than bike saddles.

I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of it and if you can explain how Proofide is different and better, then I will (grudgingly) cough-up, but to date I have only heard "the company line" (and I don't mean just from you).

Proofhide vs dubbin.... (subjective 'evidence'. NB I didn't say 'better'.)
It handles differently, it is a different consistency, it dries at a different rate, it smells different, when dry it leaves a different 'residue', it is absorbed by leather differently, it doesn't make leather waterproof to anywhere near the same degree, etc., et cetera.

Now it may be is merely a sub-genre of dubbin with a lighter more volatile base than generic dubbin and I'm no analytical chemist (though one does live a few doors down) so you may be right empirically but 40 years of using dubbin and 30 years of using proofhide, including some silly one dubbined boot one proofhided boot experiments driven by OCD, have convinced me they ain't the same stuff.

Cousins maybe, brothers possibly, but not identical twins.