Buying handbuilt wheels

[I like Skol]

I understood "double butted" with regard to spokes as being the other way round to how the term is used with frames... ie the ends are narrower and the thicker bit is the middle section of the spoke, presumably for stiffness? Certainly this was the case on my RS30s which were described as double butted on the spoke, but someone in the know said they should be classed as "swaged" - except most buyers wouldn't know what that meant but would think "double butted" sounded swanky as so many frames go on about same.

Stu

A butted frame tube or a butted spoke are both the same, they get thicker at the ends because that is the point the stress forces have most effect and any failure is expected to happen. The rest of the tube/spoke can be thinner/lighter without compromising the overal strength of the structure. Double butted simply means both ends are butted. I can't think of many places on a bike frame where a tube would be single butted, perhaps the seat tube would be butted at the bottom where it is joined to the bottom bracket shell but not at the top?

A little off topic but this also leads on to 2 other reasons why frame tubes are butted besides weight saving. The first is to reduce the effect of welding/brazing which can affect the metal structure and weaken the tube. The second is to improve the ride or feel of a frame, I think particularly with aluminium, a straight gauge tube can be very uncompliant and give an unacceptably harsh ride but by clever use of butted tubes a much more pleasant ride can be achieved.

 

[dellzeqq]

lulubel - the answer to one of your questions is that Tiagra hubs are not all that good. Not poor, but, equally, not brilliant. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy them, but that, if you do, you should look at them after a winter's use.

and being only 8 stone is a big deal. The excellent Mr. Collins might well be advised to avoid 32 spoke wheels, but, at 12 stone, I've ridden 16 and 20 spoke wheels for almost a decade, and suffered very few breakages.

If I were looking for a (relatively) inexpensive wheel for a lightweight rider I'd go for a lightweight wheel with no more than 20 spokes a wheel like these little honeys http://road.cc/content/review/1216-shimano-rs80-wheelset available for £350 if you look around and £300 if you get lucky. They have the same rim technology as my DA7850s, which is, frankly, a little hard to take. Having light wheels is a real luxury - you press down on the pedal and whoosh! away you go. Lighter, less powerful riders will feel the benefit even more.

And one more thing. There are very, very few bike shops that I'd avoid if I were in any way to rely on their advice or their workmanship. Condor is one of those very few. That may be a personal thing, but, then again, the world is not short of bike shops.

 

[lulubel]

Nice of you to put the personal quote online, nothing sacred indeed.......

As others have mentioned, it wasn't a private special offer, just for me. I asked for a wheel recommendation and a price, and then turned to people who know what they're talking about to find out if the saleman's recommendation and price was good.

If I were looking for a (relatively) inexpensive wheel for a lightweight rider I'd go for a lightweight wheel with no more than 20 spokes a wheel like these little honeys http://road.cc/content/review/1216-shimano-rs80-wheelset available for £350 if you look around and £300 if you get lucky.

Even at £300, those would be out of my price range, unfortunately.

And one more thing. There are very, very few bike shops that I'd avoid if I were in any way to rely on their advice or their workmanship. Condor is one of those very few. That may be a personal thing, but, then again, the world is not short of bike shops.

Could you go into a bit more detail? The world may not be short of bike shops, but it is extremely short of steel frames that will fit a small woman with short arms, as I discovered thanks to this discussion. I know Condor had problems with a faulty batch of frames a few years ago and one person on this forum reported a frame breaking after 3 years, but that's the only negative reports I've come across.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

lulubel - the answer to one of your questions is that Tiagra hubs are not all that good. Not poor, but, equally, not brilliant. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy them, but that, if you do, you should look at them after a winter's use.

Psst lulubel.... ask him what he rides and how much it cost, and how infrequently he changes gear on it. Dell's definitions of quality are a little different higher to those of mere mortals.

and being only 8 stone is a big deal. The excellent Mr. Collins might well be advised to avoid 32 spoke wheels, but, at 12 stone, I've ridden 16 and 20 spoke wheels for almost a decade, and suffered very few breakages.

Yes but you don't have the extra stress imposed on your wheels by mudguards. The black bike does have a set of very light very fast 25mm shod comedy 28 spoke wheels, with a close ration cassette for the days when I whip the 'guards and rack off and take part in the competition for last place in our club TT's. But then sometimes I take part in club TT's on my mtb just to tweak their oh-so-serious-noses. They refused me entry on my Brompton though as "you are just taking the piss". I wonder how they knew? The white road bike aka MacB's old Pompetamine frame has 24 spokes which I guess shows you can build strong wheel with fewer spokes provided you watch where you ride.

And one more thing. There are very, very few bike shops that I'd avoid if I were in any way to rely on their advice or their workmanship. Condor is one of those very few. That may be a personal thing, but, then again, the world is not short of bike shops.

I tried very hard to like Condor and the folk therein but couldn't and got the black 'un instead of a Condor.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Sorry to be negative, but I don't understand how £35 of hubs, 540g own brand rims (allegedly £30 each but which I suspect few if any would seek out to buy) and unnamed spokes/nipples £200 wheels make. Fyi those wheels will weigh approx 500g hubs + 1080g rims + 400g DB spokes + 60g nipples or 2040g wheels without skewers or rim tapes. They aren't light.

If I were paying full whack for a frame, I would expect a sensible deal on my handmade wheels especially if they were own branded. But that's just me.

 

[dellzeqq]

Even at £300, those would be out of my price range, unfortunately.

sorry - it was just a thought

Could you go into a bit more detail? The world may not be short of bike shops, but it is extremely short of steel frames that will fit a small woman with short arms, as I discovered thanks to this discussion. I know Condor had problems with a faulty batch of frames a few years ago and one person on this forum reported a frame breaking after 3 years, but that's the only negative reports I've come across.

it's a few years since I went to Condor but I have to say that all the advice I received was rubbish and the rubbishness was only matched by the assurance with which the advice was offered. And I don't like their bikes.

I read the thread you linked to and I have to say I found it completely bewildering. You're in Malaga. You want to buy a bike from the Grays Inn Road. For (removes socks in order to count on toes) £800+ Without riding it first. Why? There's a lot of tosh talked about hand made this and that, and steel frames, but the proof of the pudding is in the riding. Surely you can pop down to a bike shop in Malaga and see if they can find you something that fits. Put it another way - what if you buy this frame and buy the wheels and it's not what you want? Do you think you could be over-intellectualising a wee bit?

FWIW I run rides which attract a fair number of women riders. I've only once seen a road bike that was mis-sold to a woman, and in that case it was because she was tall and the salesman (in Evans) simply palmed her off with a bike that was too small because he couldn't get his head around her being six foot tall. And there are so many ways of varying the geometry of a bike based around a standard frame (the rake and length of the headset, the saddle position) that I wouldn't even dream of going for something specially made until I'd tried stuff out.

And, just to prove young Greg wrong.........my personal recommendation would be the all-carbon Boardman Race at £650 from Halfords, the XS size having a top tube measured parallel to the ground (the way it should be) at 525mm. Is there a Halfords in Malaga?

 

[amaferanga]

Sorry to be negative, but I don't understand how £35 of hubs, 540g own brand rims (allegedly £30 each but which I suspect few if any would seek out to buy) and unnamed spokes/nipples £200 wheels make. Fyi those wheels will weigh approx 500g hubs + 1080g rims + 400g DB spokes + 60g nipples or 2040g wheels without skewers or rim tapes. They aren't light.

If I were paying full whack for a frame, I would expect a sensible deal on my handmade wheels especially if they were own branded. But that's just me.

+1 Just what I was thinking. Given the individual costs then that's a damn expensive set of wheels and really heavy, especially for someone who is 8 stone. They're charging near on £100 just to build the wheels! For £200 I'd be expecting at least Shimano 105 hubs and DT or Sapim double butted spokes (and better quality rims).

 

[uphillstruggler]

i just paid £128 for a set of RS30's from Merlin so for your budget, you should be able to get something half decent.

i did contact a wheelbuilder who gets on her, i will put his email on a comment on your profile, he may be worth running your requirements past.

 

[lulubel]

I read the thread you linked to and I have to say I found it completely bewildering. You're in Malaga. You want to buy a bike from the Grays Inn Road. For (removes socks in order to count on toes) £800+ Without riding it first. Why? There's a lot of tosh talked about hand made this and that, and steel frames, but the proof of the pudding is in the riding. Surely you can pop down to a bike shop in Malaga and see if they can find you something that fits. Put it another way - what if you buy this frame and buy the wheels and it's not what you want? Do you think you could be over-intellectualising a wee bit

I think perhaps I need to summarise my other thread here:

I have been stuck at home (can't drive since my crash) for the last couple of weeks, and in that time I've gone through the websites of every major bike manufacturer, including the Spanish ones, and have found nothing in the frame material I've chosen (steel) with the groupset I want (tiagra) at a price I can afford. I see little point in dragging myself into Malaga City (not an easy trip) once I've recovered to confirm it.

....my personal recommendation would be the all-carbon Boardman Race at £650 from Halfords, the XS size having a top tube measured parallel to the ground (the way it should be) at 525mm. Is there a Halfords in Malaga?

Then you obviously have no idea what I want from a bike, despite having read my first thread. I had to throw my last frame away after I crashed it. I don't plan on doing that again. (And that top tube is 20mm longer than I had, and I already use a short stem.)

I assume that last question was a joke.

Thanks to everyone else who has given me feedback on Condor's wheel pricing. I think I'll be looking elsewhere for my wheels.

 

[Cyclist33]

Hi lulubel, dont want to trawl through the debate, but i would just say a pair of shimano rs10s 20s or 30s are all great wheels and would set you back 100-130 quid the pair from Merlin. Weight about 1850-2000g with skewers. The rs30 are aero bladed if thats your bag. Low spoke count, fast smooth n quiet... Why go to the expense and hassle of handbuilt?

Stu

Ps i get your thinking, once bitten twice shy, but really its a case of Dont crash, and you neednt shy away from,aluminium.

 

[Cyclist33]

i just paid £128 for a set of RS30's from Merlin so for your budget, you should be able to get something half decent.

i did contact a wheelbuilder who gets on her, i will put his email on a comment on your profile, he may be worth running your requirements past.

Are your spokes thinner at the ends like they were on my rs30s?

 

[PpPete]

I think perhaps I need to summarise my other thread here:
I have been stuck at home (can't drive since my crash) for the last couple of weeks, .....

Time to learn how to build your own then?
Provided you stick to 32 spoke or 36 spoke, and follow the right recipe, it is not hard at all.... and the results are just so satisfying.

Start with the Wheelpro book http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php which has incredibly clear instructions and diagrams. Build a few pairs sticking strictly to that recipe, then you can start to experiment - you will soon know more about wheels than most shop staff.

These rims are arguably better than the Open Pros, and a stonking price atm
http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/RIDTRR465/dt_swiss_rr_465_double_road_rim

Tiagra hubs are OK - or 105 if you can afford them, or look around for a bargain on some sealed bearing ones. Just make sure you get 32 hole and Shimano compatible.

Spokes, Double-butted, stainless steel - Sapim Race, DT Swiss Comp are both top notch.

 

[lulubel]

i get your thinking, once bitten twice shy, but really its a case of Dont crash, and you neednt shy away from,aluminium.

I didn't cause the crash. A car pulled out right in front of me on a roundabout. Not much I could have done to avoid that, unfortunately.

 

[lulubel]

Time to learn how to build your own then?
Provided you stick to 32 spoke or 36 spoke, and follow the right recipe, it is not hard at all.... and the results are just so satisfying.

Thanks for that, Pete. I did read Sheldon's article on wheelbuilding yesterday, and started thinking it doesn't seem that hard.

 

[Crackle]

Thanks for that, Pete. I did read Sheldon's article on wheelbuilding yesterday, and started thinking it doesn't seem that hard.

It's not, you could even make a jig from your old forks. I think the spoke length calculations are the hardest part and there's lots of info on that. I made some years ago out of skip parts when I was very skint, keep intending to have another go.