Canal path "spills" - what do you do?

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ColinJ

Puzzle game procrastinator!
I have just contacted the Canal & River Trust with my idea. They say that they will respond within 5 working days. I'll post that reply below when I have it.

It might be considered that like the K&A as you leave Reading, it's better for everyone to route bike traffic away from the towpath for a few miles (actually a very charming walk).
Er, the £2.1 million pounds spent recently was to route bike traffic ONTO the towpath!
 
Er, the £2.1 million pounds spent recently was to route bike traffic ONTO the towpath!
It happened before I was involved with the canal world, but I have to say the cycle route that takes you away from the towpath at Theale going out of Reading is much nicer to ride than the towpath. Perhaps a bit noisy as you're very close to the M4 for a mile or so, but that bit of the K&A is noisy anyway - "Brunel's tabletop", the train line from London to Bristol follows much of the same path, just as the canal follows the Roman road that became the A4.

There's no good reason for bikes to have access to any part of the towpath, as in some places it makes life for others difficult. In other places (I am thinking of good chunks of the North Oxford here, but there are others) inappropriate/careless users have really damaged the towpath. All I'm saying is that the issues around these decisions are not nearly as simple as you are suggesting they ought to be.
 
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They are indeed a Rochdale Canal thing. I’ve either boated or cycled most canals in Britain and the idea of a bywash that empties over, not under, the towpath is generally not something you find anywhere else.

I love the Rochdale - so much so that I wrote an article for Waterways World about it called “Your New Favourite Canal”. It has lots of idiosyncrasies like this. Enjoy them!

Well there I that one example of a spillway on another I posted earlier on the Calder/Hebble :whistle:

That article sounds good and you're right the Rochdale is an interesting canal.
 
Houseboaters not allowed to cycle in your ideal world?

Houseboats are not something you see on that sort of the network, I think you mean narrowboaters.

But as you're so keen to infer things and take umbrage at things I haven't actually said, then I'll try to put you out of your misery. There are some parts of the network where cycling isn't compatible with other users of the towpath, and in those cases it's better that cyclists are prevented from using the towpath on that section of the network. It's no different to prohibitions on fishing (various local rules), mooring (see the 1995 Waterways Act and various bits of local legislation), the towpath being closed to everyone for stoppages, or preventing cycling in pedestrian zones in town centres.

Anyway, if there won't be real access, they should pay the millions back.

Why? That line doesn't sound so different to a Daily Mail type motorist screaming "I pay my road tax!".

Some boaters are just as badly behaved as all the other groups, by the way. A lot of liveaboards sneer at the the IWA calling them the "shiny boat brigade", but if groups like the IWA hadn't campaigned and indeed put their own labour into rebuilding the derelict canals in the 1970s, there wouldn't be a network for people to claim ownership of today.

TL; DR: we don't know the reasons some things are done in the way they are. Maybe the reasons are historic, or maybe there's another insight none of us have as we weren't involved in the decision making.
 
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Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
Saying that, I don't believe that cyclists should assume that a resource is appropriate for them just because said resource is car-free. You see that kind of entitlement with motorists all the time. The attitude that you're displaying in your post doesn't feel different to a motorist arguing that 20mph zones are a bad idea because they make their journey times longer. We all belong to tribes, and woebetide the other lot!

But the Rochdale canal towpath is officially suitable for cyclists
http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/rochdale/rc25.htm
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Houseboats are not something you see on that sort of the network, I think you mean narrowboaters.
Whatever. This isn't canalchat so it's not surprising I'm not jargon-compliant. How about answering the substance of the question rather than nitpicking the use of a wrong word? Surely any bit of live towpath may have some legitimate reasons for cycle access?

There are some parts of the network where cycling isn't compatible with other users of the towpath, and in those cases it's better that cyclists are prevented from using the towpath on that section of the network. It's no different to prohibitions on fishing (various local rules), mooring (see the 1995 Waterways Act and various bits of local legislation), the towpath being closed to everyone for stoppages, or preventing cycling in pedestrian zones in town centres.
Whereas I'd say in those cases it's better that the towpath is upgraded to be fit for purpose, especially when they've taken more than some whole county's cycling budget to improve access to one towpath.

I don't agree that it's identical to prohibitions on fishing, mooring or stoppage closures. It's more like preventing cycling in pedestrian zones in town centres, which is usually amazingly wrongheaded, commercially harmful, done contrary to the guidance (for the last 35 years in the case of pedestrian zones) and ignores it being allowed in most neighbouring countries.

Why? That line doesn't sound so different to a Daily Mail type motorist screaming "I pay my road tax!".
How? Road tax hasn't existed for ages, whereas the towpath improvement funding clearly did! The partnership accepted funding to "provide people travelling on foot or by bike through the valley with a safe, scenic, traffic-free route they can use all year round" (according to quotes in the link posted earlier). If they're not going to deliver that after all, the bulk of the funding should be spent elsewhere towards that aim.

Some boaters are just as badly behaved as all the other groups, by the way. A lot of liveaboards sneer at the the IWA calling them the "shiny boat brigade", but if groups like the IWA hadn't campaigned and indeed put their own labour into rebuilding the derelict canals in the 1970s, there wouldn't be a network for people to claim ownership of today.
You know more about boater bad behaviour than me. I've not had any problems riding CRT towpaths in Somerset, London and mid-Lincolnshire, but I don't get there that often now. The fens waterways seem to be mostly under the control of the Environment Agency or Internal Drainage Board.

Thanks to those who rebuilt the derelict canals, but surely that shows that canals can and should still change to be relevant to current needs and desires, not have mistakes kept as museum pieces when they harm current use.

TL; DR: we don't know the reasons some things are done in the way they are. Maybe the reasons are historic, or maybe there's another insight none of us have as we weren't involved in the decision making.
Then I feel it's up to those making the decisions to explain them to the public when public money is involved. I don't think knee-jerk defences of what looks like misspent public funds is good for anyone.
 

Svendo

Guru
Location
Walsden
On the canal path between Todmorden and Hebden Bridge, there are several cobbled areas across the path where water from the canal flows into the river. There are some very narrow boards put up to use as a bridge for walking, but they are too narrow to ride across. I don't know if the spills are ok to ride through, they look a bit slippery and dangerous. So far I have carried my bike across the boards but it's quite awkward and I worry about falling.

Are these spills found on many canal paths? I'm planning a tour and was hoping to use canal paths along my route, but I don't think I could carry a fully loaded bike across any spills safely! Should I be packing wellies so I can wade through? 😊

To get back to OP…
I’ve used the Rochdale to Todmorden sections occasionally to give some variety from the road on my commutes, usually when the weathers warm and dry.
I use a road bike and it depends on the slips condition, some are no trouble, a bit bumpy. Others like the one near Pollards in Walsden (although the chippy is now closed, it’s lock 27 as well) is in proper Arenberg Forest condition, so I’ve wheeled or carried the bike over, only using the bridge if the overflowing water is deep.

Recently I’ve moved from 23mm to 25mm tyres, so I’ve just been charging across using the cushioning from these balloonish tyres!
 
But the Rochdale canal towpath is officially suitable for cyclists
http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/rochdale/rc25.htm
First off, that's not the official page - the official page is here https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/cycling/cycling-faqs

It points out that most canal towpaths are "permissive paths", rather than rights of way. Let's establish this, because it is a legal fact - landowners are within their rights to not allow cyclists on permissive paths. BW often close sections of towpaths for repair works, for example.

I'd say that CART are extremely accommodating of all the interest groups of canal users. All the CART staff I have been involved with have been really, really good at listening and genuinely try to find the best outcome for everyone involved.

It's more like preventing cycling in pedestrian zones in town centres, which is usually amazingly wrongheaded, commercially harmful, done contrary to the guidance (for the last 35 years in the case of pedestrian zones) and ignores it being allowed in most neighbouring countries.
All I've said are there are reasons why sometimes it is not a good thing to have cyclists mixing with other users of a resource, especially when that resource wasn't designed with a particular group in mind hundreds of years ago.. I think it's absolutely right that decisions are made on a case-by-case basis rather than blanket access for everyone, no matter what sort of group they are involved with.

Then I feel it's up to those making the decisions to explain them to the public when public money is involved. I don't think knee-jerk defences of what looks like misspent public funds is good for anyone.

If you are looking for kneejerk reactions, try a mirror. I've not defended a single tangible thing about these particular spills because I'm not in possession of all the facts. I'm just suggesting reasons why the spills might still be there. You seem to be looking for a reason to feel persecuted.

I will be interested to read the response to @ColinJ 's question from someone who understands the whole issue and the interests of everyone who has been involved.
 
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Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Being a naturally wobbly cyclist I'm not keen on towpaths.

The worst bits are the low arched bridges which force you closer to the edge.

One thing has always puzzled me - how did the towing horse get under those bridges?
 

Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
First off, that's not the official page - the official page is here https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/cycling/cycling-faqs

It points out that most canal towpaths are "permissive paths", rather than rights of way. Let's establish this, because it is a legal fact - landowners are within their rights to not allow cyclists on permissive paths. BW often close sections of towpaths for repair works, for example.
Well if you search for Rochdale, then follow some links, you get to
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/places-to-visit/hebden-bridge

And clicking on the cycling link from there takes you to https://www.calderdale.gov.uk/v2/sites/default/files/Ludd_May_2015.pdf which is National Cycle Network Route 66.

That even mentions the spillways "Cobbled overflows are a feature on this section and are challenging to ride. A simple footbridge wide enough to carry a cycle has been installed on one of the overflows near Key Syke Lane, Todmorden. The same installation to the other overflows would make the route more accessible."
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
You seem to be looking for a reason to feel persecuted.
Tbf, Chris I don't think @[mjr] needs to go "looking for [any more] reason(s) to feel persecuted".
@Alex321 - well done for finding that. An unladen bike can clearly walk the plank, up on rear wheel is good, @Jameshow style. A laden bike will need either to be pushed across the spill with damp feet if there's significant water flow, or some 'panniers off' relaying across the bridge.
Ride on.
 
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Jameshow

Veteran
Tbf, Chris I don't think @mjr needs to go "looking for [any more] reason(s) to feel persecuted".
@Alex321 - well done for finding that. An unladen bike can clearly walk the plank, up on rear wheel is good, @Jameshow style. A laden bike will need either to be pushed across the spill with damp feet if there's significant water flow, or some 'panniers off' relaying across the bridge.
Ride on.

Definitely, a touring bike handles very differently to a road bike DAMHIK!!

IMG-20230529-WA0117.jpeg
 
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