Carlton Cobra frame - curved stays

[midlife]

I've never seen a Hetchins with curved seat stays before.

Vibrant rear triangle . I've seen a few "back door" carltons but never one based on a cheapo Cobra frame.

 

[ladiek]

This frame has NOT been in an accident and it has not been badly stored !
Also, it is NOT a "back door" frame !
Perhaps it can be explained precisely what a cheapo frame is ?
As I have stated, it was built by Carlton to special order.
The company were very accommodating reference special requirements and they were also very innovative.
Their very rare frame using ovoid tubing is an example.
Not all Hetchins' frames had "curly" stays.
The Carlton's seat stays are straight, above the brake bridge and are a constant radius of 32" below the brake bridge down to the rear lugs.
The chain stays are 1/2" longer.
I believe that the Hetchins' seat stays are curved [more acutely] only towards the bottom - above they are basically straight.

 

[raleighnut]

This frame has NOT been in an accident and it has not been badly stored !
Also, it is NOT a "back door" frame !
Perhaps it can be explained precisely what a cheapo frame is ?
As I have stated, it was built by Carlton to special order.
The company were very accommodating reference special requirements and they were also very innovative.
Their very rare frame using ovoid tubing is an example.
Not all Hetchins' frames had "curly" stays.
The Carlton's seat stays are straight, above the brake bridge and are a constant radius of 32" below the brake bridge down to the rear lugs.
The chain stays are 1/2" longer.
I believe that the Hetchins' seat stays are curved [more acutely] only towards the bottom - above they are basically straight.

I think I'll stick with my 67 Clubman,

 

[midlife]

The Carlton Cobra frame was the lowest value frame they made at the time , this frame (and its later Crespera lugged stablemates) were turned out on a production line in tens of thousands.

Chrome the frame and it was a Cobra, paint it brown and it was a Ten, chrome the ends of the forks and it turned into a Corsa. Raleigh / Carlton bean counting at its best.

The Cobra was not available to the public as it was mass produced, dealers could only order it for warranty and repairs. The basic frame available from Carlton to the public was normally the Clubman.

I would have expected a special order frame to be a frame-only order frame like a flyer. The other thing is that for a special order I would have thought it would be dressed with better kit and not just the factory chainset etc.

 

[ladiek]

Oh dear, ruffled feathers, snobbery and a puerile reply !
The Carlton Cobra was not the lowest priced frame in 1966, the Dynamic Clubman was.
The complete bicycle was available with optional 5 speed or 10 speed items to choice - the original owner requested 5 speed, hence the Nicklin crankset.
The frame WAS available separately at the time and this one was made to special order, as I have stated.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing etc.
Goodbye CycleChat !

 

[raleighnut]

Oh dear, ruffled feathers, snobbery and a puerile reply !
The Carlton Cobra was not the lowest priced frame in 1966, the Dynamic Clubman was.
The complete bicycle was available with optional 5 speed or 10 speed items to choice - the original owner requested 5 speed, hence the Nicklin crankset.
The frame WAS available separately at the time and this one was made to special order, as I have stated.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing etc.
Goodbye CycleChat !

If it was that special who'd let it go for £105, a standard 'Cobra' with those bits on it would fetch more (the L'Eroica effect)

 

[otek59]

The Carlton Cobra frame was the lowest value frame they made at the time , this frame (and its later Crespera lugged stablemates) were turned out on a production line in tens of thousands.

Chrome the frame and it was a Cobra, paint it brown and it was a Ten, chrome the ends of the forks and it turned into a Corsa. Raleigh / Carlton bean counting at its best.

The Cobra was not available to the public as it was mass produced, dealers could only order it for warranty and repairs. The basic frame available from Carlton to the public was normally the Clubman.

I would have expected a special order frame to be a frame-only order frame like a flyer. The other thing is that for a special order I would have thought it would be dressed with better kit and not just the factory chainset etc.

I’m slightly confused by this if the Cobra was only for warranty and repairs but made in huge numbers, did that mean Raleigh/ Carlton had problems with quality control

 

[biggs682]

@ladiek have a word with Dave Marsh at Universal Cycles in Maltby

 

[Spokesmann]

While there seems to be a bit of Carlton bashing going on here (a bit! I add...) I'd just like to say these were not cheap and nasty bikes back in the day, in today's money they would still be several hundred pounds new, so not to be sniffed at. OK so Carlton machines appeal to a certain 'clique' but then again so do many other makes. Im not 100% convinced by this machine, but then again some of the explanations against it don't necessarily add up either. Im prepared to keep an open mind on this, even at this stage in the company history they still produced one offs and hand built bikes... so its not beyond the realms here. I still come across bikes of this marque which dont fit into the usual model line and seem to be odd ball one offs, all the more for latter day collectors and enthusiasts to mull over.

I have had the owner in contact with me over this machine and he is not happy with the way he has been treated. Once thing for sure the Cobra was not the bottom of the range back then. There are still many lower order and mid range models being ridden today so they are well made, quality machines, I'll take one of these any day over the usual high end mounts of the period some collectors cream their pants over.

I'll pass the images on to Dave Marsh and see if he can shed any light on this interesting bike.

 

[Illaveago]

I think that the OP is correct in stating that the seat stays are longer than original as to allow for that much bending the chain stays would either deflect in some way or would also be curved . If either of these things happened I would expect the crossbar to assume a tail down attitude and would not be horizontal .
So as the OP has said this bike does seem to be a special of some kind and it would be interesting as to how it rides .

 

[midlife]

Oh dear, ruffled feathers, snobbery and a puerile reply !
The Carlton Cobra was not the lowest priced frame in 1966, the Dynamic Clubman was.
The complete bicycle was available with optional 5 speed or 10 speed items to choice - the original owner requested 5 speed, hence the Nicklin crankset.
The frame WAS available separately at the time and this one was made to special order, as I have stated.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing etc.
Goodbye CycleChat !

No ruffled feathers, snobbery or Carlton hating here. I love the brand I raced on a Cobra as a Kid....

I also have a Cobra now along with a Carlton Pro..

I worked in a Raleigh five star dealer and PDI'd, repaired and rode hundreds of carlton bikes.

I just don't understand why a master builder would leave the workbench where he was building high class 531 frames, walk over to the production line, pick out an unpainted Tru-Wel frame, take it to his bench, dismantle the rear end, rebuild it with a hi-ten curved seat stay, walk back to the production line to have it chromed and finished....then try and find it again.

The Carlton frame catalogues usually contained one ladies frame (Courette) and one 20-30 frame like the Grand Prix as well as the more expensive stuff. I don't ever recall a catalogue with the Cobra / Corsa etc frame for sale. Certainly in our shop we ordered such frames from the dealer spares catalogue and not from a publicly available catalogue.

If someone could point me to a Carlton frames catalogue I'd be interested to know how much more an all-chromed Cobra frame cost than it's stablemates and how much cheaper the Dynamic Clubman was..

 

[raleighnut]

No ruffled feathers, snobbery or Carlton hating here. I love the brand I raced on a Cobra as a Kid....

View attachment 470562 I also have a Cobra now along with a Carlton Pro..
View attachment 470563

I worked in a Raleigh five star dealer and PDI'd, repaired and rode hundreds of carlton bikes.

I just don't understand why a master builder would leave the workbench where he was building high class 531 frames, walk over to the production line, pick out an unpainted Tru-Wel frame, take it to his bench, dismantle the rear end, rebuild it with a hi-ten curved seat stay, walk back to the production line to have it chromed and finished....then try and find it again.

The Carlton frame catalogues usually contained one ladies frame (Courette) and one 20-30 frame like the Grand Prix as well as the more expensive stuff. I don't ever recall a catalogue with the Cobra / Corsa etc frame for sale. Certainly in our shop we ordered such frames from the dealer spares catalogue and not from a publicly available catalogue.

If someone could point me to a Carlton frames catalogue I'd be interested to know how much more an all-chromed Cobra frame cost than it's stablemates and how much cheaper the Dynamic Clubman was..

The 'Dynamic' part of the Clubman name came from the brakes, 2 pivot side-pull Wienmann Dynamic.

 

[Illaveago]

No ruffled feathers, snobbery or Carlton hating here. I love the brand I raced on a Cobra as a Kid....

View attachment 470562 I also have a Cobra now along with a Carlton Pro..
View attachment 470563

I worked in a Raleigh five star dealer and PDI'd, repaired and rode hundreds of carlton bikes.

I just don't understand why a master builder would leave the workbench where he was building high class 531 frames, walk over to the production line, pick out an unpainted Tru-Wel frame, take it to his bench, dismantle the rear end, rebuild it with a hi-ten curved seat stay, walk back to the production line to have it chromed and finished....then try and find it again.

The Carlton frame catalogues usually contained one ladies frame (Courette) and one 20-30 frame like the Grand Prix as well as the more expensive stuff. I don't ever recall a catalogue with the Cobra / Corsa etc frame for sale. Certainly in our shop we ordered such frames from the dealer spares catalogue and not from a publicly available catalogue.

If someone could point me to a Carlton frames catalogue I'd be interested to know how much more an all-chromed Cobra frame cost than it's stablemates and how much cheaper the Dynamic Clubman was..

I would imagine that it would have been assembled as a special kit of parts with a job card which would have stayed with it through the whole assembly process as with limited run productions .

 

[midlife]

That's the tricky thing, it's not a limited edition it's a one off special order. I've seen plenty of special order carltons and we had some of the paperwork lying in old drawers around the bike shop. Best of which were the colour brochures of the colour schemes you could order.....but none I remember relating to the Cobra. I just dont know how it was ordered? Did the owner go to the Worksop factory, order it through a shop or via the rep?

 

[Illaveago]

That's the tricky thing, it's not a limited edition it's a one off special order. I've seen plenty of special order carltons and we had some of the paperwork lying in old drawers around the bike shop. Best of which were the colour brochures of the colour schemes you could order.....but none I remember relating to the Cobra. I just dont know how it was ordered? Did the owner go to the Worksop factory, order it through a shop or via the rep?

Perhaps he played golf with a manager .