Chain waxing question.

[PpPete]

I use a "home-brew" - paraffin wax with PTFE powder (environmentally not the best choice, but I'm still using up a bag of powder I bought several years ago).
I run two bikes with waxed chains using this mix, both with 11 speed mechanical Shimano 105 with 11-32 cassettes.
For each bike I have three chains and I swop them out as soon as they get noisy or look grubby - then clean and rewax a few chains at once.

Bike A) which gets used only in good weather on dry roads, has 105 cranks with AB oval chainrings to make it into a 46/30 sub compact and uses KMC X11EL chains
Bike B) which gets used if raining or if roads going to be damp, has an Ultegra triple crankset tansformed into a 44/28 sub-compact by using only inner and middle positions, a chainguard in place of the outer ring, and various spacers to re-optimize the chain line. I run basic YBN chains on this one.

I've chosen to use different brands of chain so as to keep a distinction when rewaxing a batch of chains, as the two bikes need different length chains.

So here is the question I put to the assembled wisdom:
Why do the KMC chains on bike A get noisy in 200km or less, whereas the YBN chains on bike B are still running quietly & smoothly at 500km ?
Anyone else got experience of different brands of chain lasting different intervals despite similar waxing processes ?
Or could it be the alternate stretch and relax on the chain due to the ovals chainrings?
Or am I doing my rewaxing at the wrong phase of the moon?

By the way, if you want to criticize my choice of chainrings, or dispute the use of wax over oil for chains - please don't bother to reply on this thread.

 

[88robb]

That's a common observation. KMC chains, especially the EL model, have a reputation for being noisier with wax than other brands. Their internal tolerances and surface finish just seem to shed wax faster.

The oval chainrings definitely contribute. The constant speed change puts more stress on the wax film, breaking it down quicker than the consistent pull of round rings.

Stick with the YBN or try a Shimano chain for Bike A if you want quieter performance. Your process is fine, it's just the hardware combination.

 

[wafter]

Good work with the DIY sub-compacts; I wish manufactures would offer comparable sizes off the shelf as IMO what's on offer is still far too tall for the majority of riders; but I digress..

You raise an interesting question. I can’t offer any suggestions as to why you’re experiencing much lower mileage on the KMC chains, however for comparison I run waxed KMCs on a number of my bikes:

- X8s on (effectively) 1x2 with 50 and 13/16
- X9s on 3x9 with 48/36/26 and 11-34
- X11s on 2x11 with (well, woth) 50/34 and 11-34

As long as they don’t get excessively damp I expect around 300 miles from all of them before they want a re-wax (so in this regard are comparable to the results you’re getting from the YBN chains). Over time they get noticeably more sloppy / maybe a little rattly but not to the point where it’s problematic or concerning, and if not re-waxing based on distance they get done when they start to squeak.

What to do you term as “noisy”?

From my experiences alone I’d suggest that the reason for the difference in wax life is more likely due to the different drive trains rather than the chains themselves..

 

[PpPete]

That's a common observation. KMC chains, especially the EL model, have a reputation for being noisier with wax than other brands. Their internal tolerances and surface finish just seem to shed wax faster.

The oval chainrings definitely contribute. The constant speed change puts more stress on the wax film, breaking it down quicker than the consistent pull of round rings.

Stick with the YBN or try a Shimano chain for Bike A if you want quieter performance. Your process is fine, it's just the hardware combination.

Thanks
I've ordered a regular YBN chain (like on bike B) and also a YBN "SLA" (slightly more premium version with slotted outer plates like the KMC-EL) and will see how I get on with those while still keeping the oval chainrings. If still noisy after distances of less than 300km I will look out the original 50/34 round rings and refit those. They are a bit "tall" for me, but I guess I will have to HTFU (or, more likely, shell out for new chainset)

What to do you term as “noisy”?

As I do all my own fettling I suppose I am quite sensitive to anything other than a basically silent drivetrain.....
So, by "noisy" I mean I can hear a slightly metallic whispering sound of flat metal plates rubbing against each other. Less volume than even a slightly rubbing disc brake, but still (to me) highly irritatiing.

 

[88robb]

Thanks
I've ordered a regular YBN chain (like on bike B) and also a YBN "SLA" (slightly more premium version with slotted outer plates like the KMC-EL) and will see how I get on with those while still keeping the oval chainrings. If still noisy after distances of less than 300km I will look out the original 50/34 round rings and refit those. They are a bit "tall" for me, but I guess I will have to HTFU (or, more likely, shell out for new chainset)

Sounds like a solid plan. Hope the new chains fix the noise. Good luck

 

[silva]

https://tipartstitanium.com/blogs/p...e-chains-including-worlds-lightest-bike-chain
YBN is industry market where things have to last, Shimano is end-consumer market, where things have to be spent?

Years ago on a flea market there was a couple hundreds lenght YBN stamped links at a bargain price, bought them, tried, but bad luck, incompatible with singlespeed bicycle (pitch slightly higher), confirmed after looking up the specs.

 

[fossyant]

Just a heads up, Banana Industries have quite a range of YBN chains for good prices.

 

[PpPete]

Just a sequel....

The regular YBN S11S (bought from AliExpress vendor I've used previously) at least on inspection and first short ride all seems good.

Sadly the same cannot be said for the SLA version I bought from PlanetX.
When I was cleaning it prior to waxing I noticed that some of the outer plates had ends that were very "rough" - as if they had been produced in a long strip and sheared by a straight guillotine to produce something of appropriate length, but with ends that were not neatly rounded like other YBN and KMC chains. This got me suspicious so after final rinse in meths and prior to waxing I checked for length with my Park Tool gauge. Already at 0.5% !
Needless to say I have returned it for refund.
Planet X say it cannot possibly be a fake although they "will investigate" however in the meantime I suggest avoiding this:
https://planetx.co.uk/products/jobsworth-ybn-sla-11-speed-chain

 

[wafter]

Thanks
I've ordered a regular YBN chain (like on bike B) and also a YBN "SLA" (slightly more premium version with slotted outer plates like the KMC-EL) and will see how I get on with those while still keeping the oval chainrings. If still noisy after distances of less than 300km I will look out the original 50/34 round rings and refit those. They are a bit "tall" for me, but I guess I will have to HTFU (or, more likely, shell out for new chainset)


As I do all my own fettling I suppose I am quite sensitive to anything other than a basically silent drivetrain.....
So, by "noisy" I mean I can hear a slightly metallic whispering sound of flat metal plates rubbing against each other. Less volume than even a slightly rubbing disc brake, but still (to me) highly irritatiing.

Cool - good work; will be interested to hear how you get on when you've had a chance to run the new chain for a while.

I was trying to quantify the noise my chains make while out yesterday.. at first they start of silent post-wax, then as the wax wears / gets displaced they start to develop a sort of light mechanical clatter which (rightly or wrongly) I don't see as problematic. Finally when they start to squeak they get re-waxed..

 

[PpPete]

Needless to say I have returned it for refund.
Planet X say it cannot possibly be a fake although they "will investigate" however in the meantime I suggest avoiding this:
https://planetx.co.uk/products/jobsworth-ybn-sla-11-speed-chain

I've not heard anything back from them although the refund came through for the net price not including the shipping cost in either direction.

Cool - good work; will be interested to hear how you get on when you've had a chance to run the new chain for a while.

Won't be for a while - it's on my summer bike sans mudguards

.. at first they start of silent post-wax, then as the wax wears / gets displaced they start to develop a sort of light mechanical clatter which (rightly or wrongly) I don't see as problematic. Finally when they start to squeak they get re-waxed..

I find any chain noise quite off-putting, and as I've been rotating three chains on each bike (and then do a big batch of re-waxing), it's not a big deal to swop out at the first indication of any noise.

 

[scotsbikester]

I use a "home-brew" - paraffin wax with PTFE powder (environmentally not the best choice, but I'm still using up a bag of powder I bought several years ago).
I run two bikes with waxed chains using this mix, both with 11 speed mechanical Shimano 105 with 11-32 cassettes.
For each bike I have three chains and I swop them out as soon as they get noisy or look grubby - then clean and rewax a few chains at once.

Bike A) which gets used only in good weather on dry roads, has 105 cranks with AB oval chainrings to make it into a 46/30 sub compact and uses KMC X11EL chains
Bike B) which gets used if raining or if roads going to be damp, has an Ultegra triple crankset tansformed into a 44/28 sub-compact by using only inner and middle positions, a chainguard in place of the outer ring, and various spacers to re-optimize the chain line. I run basic YBN chains on this one.

I've chosen to use different brands of chain so as to keep a distinction when rewaxing a batch of chains, as the two bikes need different length chains.

So here is the question I put to the assembled wisdom:
Why do the KMC chains on bike A get noisy in 200km or less, whereas the YBN chains on bike B are still running quietly & smoothly at 500km ?
Anyone else got experience of different brands of chain lasting different intervals despite similar waxing processes ?
Or could it be the alternate stretch and relax on the chain due to the ovals chainrings?
Or am I doing my rewaxing at the wrong phase of the moon?

By the way, if you want to criticize my choice of chainrings, or dispute the use of wax over oil for chains - please don't bother to reply on this thread.

I know this is an old thread, but in case anybody picks it up as a result of a Google search, or similar.

I've just started waxing. However, I first investigated it 5 years ago (it turns out), and had an interesting private email exchange with Adam Karin at ZFC, regarding KMC chains. I'll try to be careful not to misrepresent what he said.

Basically Adam thinks that there is something about the coating on KMC chains that makes it difficult for lubricants (including, but not limited to, wax) to bond to the chain. I need to caveat that by saying he was talking about 10/11 speed chains, whereas I am on 9 speed. So it was a guess whether the same thing applied to 9 speed KMC chains.

What he did say was that there aren't really any high quality 9 speed chains anymore, apart from the SLA version of YBN chains. Which is what I've bought three of. If waxing turns out to increasing chain and cassette life as hoped, I expect to never buy another chain in my life.

He also remarked that there are a lot of fake YBN chains around. I bought mine from InASpin and the people at Molten Speed Wax (who are US distributers of YBN) assure me InASpin are kosher. Or pukka. The Real McCoy. Bona Fide. Legit.

 

[Webbo2]

You can buy prewaxed KMCchains these days and just top them up with their drip wax apparently.

 

[Ajax Bay]

something about the coating on KMC chains that makes it difficult for lubricants (including, but not limited to, wax) to bond to the chain
Adam Karin at ZFC [said] that there aren't really any high quality 9 speed chains anymore, apart from the SLA version of YBN chains

No lubricant (wax or other) bonds with the chain - but I appreciate Kerin might have said this to you.

Regarding ZFC, this was 5 years ago, right?
I know this is an old thread, but in case anybody picks it up as a result of a Google search, or similar.
Need to define "high quality" in order to appreciate this ZFC assertion, let alone on what basis/foundation this bloke relies on.
https://www.hambini.com/the-murky-w...tion-cycling-botched-testing-frigged-results/
"Zero Friction Cycling is an operation run by Adam Kerin, a former policeman with no formal engineering qualifications or engineering experience (his words). Adam’s business revolves around selling friction-reducing products through his YouTube channel, Facebook, Instagram, and his accompanying website."

Anyway noone running a 9sp chain gaf about the quality ('zero friction') of their chain, providing it's strong and doesn't wear faster than normal.
If you want to spend £32 on a 9sp chain, crack on: more than double the price of a SRAM (my preference) or Shimano - am not a fan of the KMC ones.

 

[PpPete]

I generally enjoy the Hambini youtube contributions but I think he's picked the wrong target with ZFC
Adam has established a rigorous and time-consuming testing protocol for comparing lubricants and makes the results freely available (except when testing under NDA) He may not be an engineer, but his results seem like a useful resource. Even Adam if fudged them to promote the products he sells, he's surely put far money in than he could possibly get from increased sales.
Anyhoo, my own experience of KMC (detailed upthread) matches. I've not bothered with KMC for a while, as my YBN's (4 chains across 2 bikes) are still showing zero wear after 8000km total. I have switched from home-brew to Silca hot wax but I don't think that's made any detectable difference.

 

[scotsbikester]

I generally enjoy the Hambini youtube contributions but I think he's picked the wrong target with ZFC
Adam has established a rigorous and time-consuming testing protocol for comparing lubricants and makes the results freely available (except when testing under NDA) He may not be an engineer, but his results seem like a useful resource. Even Adam if fudged them to promote the products he sells, he's surely put far money in than he could possibly get from increased sales.
Anyhoo, my own experience of KMC (detailed upthread) matches. I've not bothered with KMC for a while, as my YBN's (4 chains across 2 bikes) are still showing zero wear after 8000km total. I have switched from home-brew to Silca hot wax but I don't think that's made any detectable difference.

Does Hambini have a lubrication testing rig? Or anybody else, for that matter?

I had never heard of Hambini until you mentioned him. But I've now read the blog article that I think you're referring to. And the comments afterwards, most of which look like nothing more than a pile on - "yeah, you stick it to Adam Kerin" type of thing. However, amongst the many there is this from one poster:

"This essay exemplifies Hambini’s art of taking the big picture (e.g., an amateur who is trying to bring us some independent testing, which is imperfect, but useful) and instead focusing on the small, petty, personal, and vindictive. Yeah, Adam is not the world’s foremost technical guru. I think we all know that. He knows it, too. I haven’t not seen him claim anything to the contrary."

If Adam Kerin is such a charlatan/amateur/ignoramous, then perhaps one of his critics could set up their own lubricant testing facility, working to the high standards of precision and accuracy they think he should. And allow access to all and sundry to verify the the validity of the testing protocol. And of course they will have to do all this for free, to avoid the accusation that the testing is just a cover to sell products at a profit.

In the meantime, he's all we've got. I'm not massively bothered about small differences between this or that lubricant. But the overall message, that immersive waxing in general is better for chain longevity, is what I take away from his testing. And just as importantly, that message is backed up by many individual anecdotes on forums such as this one.