Collisions in London

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classic33

Leg End Member
Don't want to put this into Cyclist Down, so I'm asking it here.

Does anyone have any idea why there seems to be a higher proportion of female cyclists involved in HGV collisions in London? Are drivers taking less care around female cyclists, are female cyclists taking less care round HGV's?
Is it simply that a female cyclist killed is more newsworthy than a male cyclist down?
 
The numbers are so low it's difficult to make a sweeping generalisation. It was suggested women obey reds so are in more danger, but nobody can say if it's usually timid cycling or careless driving.
 

Whiskey88

Well-Known Member
Location
London
It's something I was pondering last night too. I don't have any theories to put forward, but it is odd that there appears to be a higher proportion of female cyclists being killed than male - unless the press have anything to do with it, in terms of reporting more of the incidents involving female riders than male riders.
 
The other way round, unfortunately, the driver failed to notice the cyclist in quite a few cases. More interesting to ask why HGVs figure disproportionately, even compared with buses. Are we to assume cyclists are more careless around HGVs than buses? That doesn't make much sense, so what else can explain it?
 
The other way round, unfortunately, the driver failed to notice the cyclist in quite a few cases. More interesting to ask why HGVs figure disproportionately, even compared with buses. Are we to assume cyclists are more careless around HGVs than buses? That doesn't make much sense, so what else can explain it?

We can assume that if we want to. I do not know the figures, so I'm not sure what the differences are. Nonetheless, there may be other reasons:

The driving position in an HGV is usually quite different to that in a PSV. Models and designs vary, but bus drivers tend to sit ahead of the front wheels and HGV drivers often sit above them. This will have a stark effect on the visibility of cyclists in the immediate vicinity of the cab.

You will find cases where this is not so, but the two vehicle types almost always position their driver differently.

There is also the matter of buses often having transparent doors in the line of sight between the driver and the nearside gutter. It is difficult for a cyclist to filter unseen up the nearside of a bus. Contrariwise, it is extremely unlikely that an HGV driver will see a cyclist making that same manoevre.

Further, and perhaps irrelevantly, buses tend to follow planned, known and predictable routes. This makes them less likely to suddenly pop out of building sites. The drivers tend to be familiar with the route, the traffic and the sort of road user they will encounter.

HGVs, on the other hand, may be on a particular road network for the first time and the driver may be making his or her first urban drop.

I have no idea whether there is a discrepency in the KSI (or death) figures between men and women on bicycles in London. It seems to me that the sample is so small that any difference may not be significant. Does anyone know the data?
 
It is difficult for a cyclist to filter unseen up the nearside of a bus. Contrariwise, it is extremely unlikely that an HGV driver will see a cyclist making that same manoevre.

In which London fatality are you claiming this was a factor? It is not a significant factor in cycling fatalities at all, it's rather tasteless for you to start your dishonest victim-blaming so early on the thread.

This issue has been studied, there's not a lot to it:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/may/13/cycling-lorries-women-road-deaths?guni=Article:in body link

Why are female cyclists so vulnerable to lorries?

The majority of cyclist's deaths by HGV happen in the AM peak in London. Could this be because this is the very time that the overnight lorry ban ends, thus encouraging lorries to come rushing out of their yards into rush hour traffic, the very time when the most cyclists and pedestrians are in the road?

Could there be a relationship between the inherent criminality of some lorry operators and the fact that lorries are the cause of so many deaths? 70% of ALL lorries pulled over by the Met's commercial vehicle team since 2005 have been found to have illegal faults (dodgy mirrors, bald tyres, illegal drivers over hours or with incorrect licenses, overloading... that sort of thing)

Could it be that drivers, pushed by unscrupulous operators and practices take unnecessary risks in our city centres? If you were being paid by the load wouldn't you drive as fast as you could too?

Maybe it's because the CPS fails to prosecute people who kill cyclists, and therefore less care is taken in looking out for them? Remember cyclist Emma Foa? She was killed when a lorry ran over her at a junction - she was waiting in the right place and would have been seen if the driver had been checking his mirrors. As it happens, evidence proved he was too busy fumbling around inside his cab for his timesheets when he killed her. He was fined £300 and allowed to keep his license.

HGVs make up just 6% of London's traffic, but are the cause of two thirds of all cyclist's deaths on the roads.


The British Medical Journal has stated plainly how unacceptable the risk to vulnerable road users from HGVs is. It says: "In inner London, in relation to their traffic volume, HGVs are estimated to cause 30 times as many cyclists deaths as cars and five times as many as buses. Until the factors leading to this excess risk are understood, a ban on HGVs in urban areas should be considered."

The reason why so many cyclists are being killed by lorries, females especially, is because our powers that be; the Met, the Mayor, TfL are FAILING to do anything worthwhile about it.

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/call-for-action-on-cycle-safety-and.html

The haulage industry, Met police and mayor need to sit down and sort this out, companies involved in fatalities should be named and shamed.
 
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ohnovino

Large Member
Location
Liverpool
There's a theory that women are less comfortable cycling assertively than men, and so would be more inclined to hug the gutter and get caught down the inside of a long vehicle.

Not sure how much truth there is to that as there are obviously a couple of very big assumptions, but it does sort of fit with what I see: in five years of cycling I don't think I've ever seen a female cyclist take the lane.
 
In which London fatality are you claiming this was a factor? It is not a significant factor in cycling fatalities at all, it's rather tasteless for you to start your dishonest victim-blaming so early on the thread.

I'm sorry you find my observations tasteless and that you see them as victim-blaming (dishonest even!). I was seking only to answer your question, which I quote below:

glenn forger said:
More interesting to ask why HGVs figure disproportionately, even compared with buses. Are we to assume cyclists are more careless around HGVs than buses?

I'm not sure how I was indulging in victim-blaming or being tasteless. Others may agree with you. I just re-read my post (#6) and cannot identify tasteless comments or victim-blaming. Others may be able to.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
it is a disproportionate number, but being a woman doesn't get you killed. Being to the left or in front of a lorry (and, let's be clear here, it's more than likely to be a construction lorry) is what gets you killed, if (and this is an almighty if) the driver of the lorry does not take sufficient care.
http://cycling-intelligence.com/fatal-cycling-accidents-in-london/

So.........to re-cast the question. Why do lorry drivers kill a disproportionately high number of women? And that is a real humdinger of a question, because it puts the motivation of the lorry driver at the centre of things.
 

Whiskey88

Well-Known Member
Location
London
There's a theory that women are less comfortable cycling assertively than men, and so would be more inclined to hug the gutter and get caught down the inside of a long vehicle.

Not sure how much truth there is to that as there are obviously a couple of very big assumptions, but it does sort of fit with what I see: in five years of cycling I don't think I've ever seen a female cyclist take the lane.

Each cyclist is an individual. I see men hug the gutters and women take primary, and vice-versa. I definitely see too many people filter to the left of HGVs though, and that gives me the shudders every time I see it.
 
Below is from my epxerience, not stats:

I see more women than men squeezing up the inside of large stationery/slow vehicles. I know this is dangerous but I do not know if this is the cause of the deaths.
 
OP
OP
classic33

classic33

Leg End Member
I asked the question, with the wording that I felt best fitted the issue.
Move away from London & it becomes more "cyclist killed/injured" in reports. Very few reports state male cyclist killed in collision with HGV.
And I did ask is this down to the media.
 

deptfordmarmoset

Full time tea drinker
Location
Armonmy Way
I asked the question, with the wording that I felt best fitted the issue.
Move away from London & it becomes more "cyclist killed/injured" in reports. Very few reports state male cyclist killed in collision with HGV.
And I did ask is this down to the media.
It's probably because the incidence of female KSIs under HGVs - and particularly tippers - is vastly disproportionate in London.
 
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